Interview with Atomos CEO on Prores RAW:
https://www.redsharknews.com/produc...-founder-ceo-of-atomos-about-prores-raw-video
https://www.redsharknews.com/produc...-founder-ceo-of-atomos-about-prores-raw-video
ProRes RAW
- Thread starter dpc
- Start date
alaskacameradude
Veteran
Yeah, the 7Q and Inferno are great and all, when you are doing something
like an interview where the camera is pretty much locked down on sticks.
But I'd like a smaller version for when you need to be moving more often.
I know they have heard this, but no one seems inclined to come out with this
yet.
Run&Gun
Veteran
A little while back, several people, myself included, said CD should go back to a Nano Flash style recorder. Just a small little black-box. I hate external recorders, now. Why in the hell would I want to be running around with a 7" monitor hanging off of my camera all the time? If I'm shooting a sit-down interview, fine. But not while I'm running around shooting b-roll, etc. The only external recorder(s) that I've used in the last few years that I'm fine with and didn't get in the way was the Sony R5 and R7 for the F5/F55, because it just locks onto the back and becomes a small extension of the camera body. And no extra power or BNC cables, either.
Personally, I'd like to see ProRes RAW implemented internally in any camera capable of recording ProRes internally.
Cary Knoop
Veteran
I was led to believe that only the Sumo and the Shogun Inferno where powerful enough to convert raw input from all raw enabled cameras to ProRes RAW.
alaskacameradude
Veteran
Yup, that’s exactly what I’d like to see. Separate the ‘recorder’ from the
‘monitor’. When I’m doing an interview, I’ll use both. When I’m running
around shooting b-roll, I’d love a tiny recorder that could record ProRes Raw.
Last thing I want is a big heavy monitor attached to my camera during this.
High1ander
Well-known member
I'm not a fan of ProRes or Apple, and that kinda goes back 10+ years. Even now when I get to edit with large ProRes files around 100 GB my PC goes bananas trying to cache the files in Windows... I basically have to turn off all the thumbnail/cache functions in Windows or it will literally take 3-4 hours to cache the file to a swapfile/pagefile (and how often do you have those set to 100+ GB on SSDs?)... I just need to open a browser window and it will "freeze" the computer taking 99% CPU-power, and reboot is only valid option to unfreeze it. So I really don't look forward to working with large ProRes files on Windows. That said, it doesn't mean Windows isn't a s*%tty OS for being bogged down by a simple movie file, but as of now, it is the only files I've stumbled across that does that.
cpreston
Veteran
The Ninja seems to be their HDMI recorder. No HDMI port will have RAW so I don't think Atomos meant to imply that the Ninja would record Prores Raw. Since recording Prores RAW would seem to be little less dependent on knowing how Atomos is interpreting the signal for recording prores with the the Ninja Star, I would be surprised in Atomos doesn't release a "Shogun Star" fairly soon.
Mitch Gross
Veteran
I gots the knowing of a lot of things. Soon you'll all know more.
Sounds like you are running a PC configuration that is marginal for editing high data rate DI formats. Editing from a system drive can bottleneck data transfer rates over the drive bus, which can be substantial, 400Mbps or more, with Prores.
Windows is certainly not the problem. I run 6TB of external raid storage over a Thunderbolt 3 port on my Win 10 laptop and it can handle any flavor of HD/2k Prores without issue. 4K is fine up to HQ quality but 16 bit 4:4:4 will slow things down a bit. I hit a practical data transfer limit at 800Mbps.
Thomas Smet
Veteran
You are such a tease
Thomas Smet
Veteran
You really need to ask yourself if the format is to blame or the system. If ProRes performance was always horrible you may have a point but I use ProRes on a 2011 MBP and it cuts like a hot knife through soft butter sitting outside on a hot summer day. ProRes support isn't the best on a PC and I agree that sucks. I refuse however to discredit one of the industries best formats for quality/performance due to one specific computer platform. I'm not loyal to a computer. I'm loyal to a format that gives me a flawless and hassle free workflow. If somebody managed to create a format that performs as well as ProRes on a Mac and FCPX I may switch back but until that time comes the computer comes second to workflow/quality.
Apple is a business and they invested a lot of R&D into ProRes to leverage to give them a market edge. I don't think it is wrong for them to use that leverage. Any one of us would do the exact same thing if we created a product like that. Anybody who says otherwise clearly doesn't run a successful business creating products to sell for profit.
As a software developer myself you better damn believe if I created a format like ProRes I would also make it exclusive to sell other products I make. Call me greedy if you want but I am not a charity and neither is Apple. You want to buck the system and denounce Apple go ahead but sometimes that attitude can cause suffering. As Yoda said hate leads to suffering.
filmguy123
Veteran
PC prores raw read support will come... go vote...
https://adobe-video.uservoice.com/forums/911233-premiere-pro?category_id=332668
https://adobe-video.uservoice.com/forums/911233-premiere-pro?category_id=332668
High1ander
Well-known member
I have no problem editing the files in Premiere, I just can't "media manage" them in Windows i.e. they behave closer to a virus than anything else, and this is on Win 7, 8 and 10. If I want to move them or rename I have to use something outside of windows own explorer/finder.
Apple wants to lock people into their plattform and I don't feel like being locked into their systems since they have a tendency to simply not give a crap about their customers when they decide to discontinue programs or remove features.
Even simple stuff back in the day like transferring miniDV tapes to a Mac meant it was locked to Apple, but if I transferred to PC it was open for both PC and Mac. You can call that great inovation and protecting your IP, I call it trash. I am not against that Apple creates a product like ProRes, I just don't like it when recorders "only" support ProRes (cause some of the clients I do edit work for only have had AJA Ki Pro which used to only record ProRes), since some of us like to be plattform independent. I prefer open formats thru and thru...
alaskacameradude
Veteran
Well then, have one system for editing ProRes (even an older 'refurbished' MacBook Pro that you can pick
up pretty cheap on eBay) and your normal PC based system for editing anything else. Seems like that would
work and what I've seen most platform independent people do. Unless by 'platform independent' you really
mean 'I don't want to use any Macs.' Which then means you will have a harder time using things Apple
makes.......like ProRes. So you then use other codecs instead of ProRes.
Or upgrade to Lightworks or Resolve. They have no trouble with ProRes. I edit big, honkin' ProRes files in Windows without a hitch using either one of those.
Or upgrade to Lightworks or Resolve. They have no trouble with ProRes. I edit big, honkin' ProRes files in Windows without a hitch using either one of those.
High1ander
Well-known member
Well, for now the stations I do final delivery have .mxf as preferred format. It could be just that the recorder (AJA Ki-Pro) makes a funky version of ProRes that boggs down, this is for 2-3 hour long ProRes files.
Plattform independent isn't having every plattform, it is being able to take anything from clients and send anything to clients more or less. Imagine how bad it would be if the same approach to video would be for pictures (imagine importing pictures from your camera to Mac and then you can't view or edit them on a PC/Android). Apple is big/huge in some markets, but they aren't as big as they used to be with FCP 7, and there are way more Androids and PC (windows) out there which means it is more supported and more programs for them in general. Thru the years PC has been better for 95% of the stuff I do, and the other 5% I can live without or work around. Would I use Mac it would only support 50-70% of the work and programs I want (including games). The point is that I can't see why anyonenot working for the companies aren't more interested in open cross-plattform solutions, or is it just fun to do transcode this and that, and not having the ability to export certain file types a client ask for.
As I said Premiere has no problems with the files, only Windows.
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I also prefer open formats and some time ago we explored an OpenEXR workflow for a narrative project. It wasn’t worth the effort because of the limited NLE support and the virtual absence of hardware acceleration. If someone solves those problems I would be happy to give the format another look.
Where were all of these complaints about proprietary formats when RED introduced R3D, ARRI introduced ARRIRAW, Sony introduced their various RAW options, Canon introduced Canon RAW and more recently introduced Cinema RAW Light? These are all closed codecs. Sony didn’t even want third party external recorders to capture the compressed FS RAW output from their FS700, FS5 and FS7 cameras. Atomos and Convergent Devices are forced to decompress and then save as CDNG, ProRes, or DNX.
Apple is simply doing the same thing they did when they introduced ProRes. Not so many years ago you had to worry about the codec your Quicktime video file was using and it was a nightmare. Many people just stuck with uncompressed video to avoid the pain. Apple introduced ProRes and suddenly the post production world could focus on editing instead of file wrangling.
ProRes RAW promises to do the same thing for RAW that the original ProRes did for uncompressed video. The big difference is this time around the format will launch as an acquisition format. It’s going to be huge and no amount of complaining is going to change that.
We are going to be able to execute multi-cam raw edits on an iMac! Good times!
Where were all of these complaints about proprietary formats when RED introduced R3D, ARRI introduced ARRIRAW, Sony introduced their various RAW options, Canon introduced Canon RAW and more recently introduced Cinema RAW Light? These are all closed codecs. Sony didn’t even want third party external recorders to capture the compressed FS RAW output from their FS700, FS5 and FS7 cameras. Atomos and Convergent Devices are forced to decompress and then save as CDNG, ProRes, or DNX.
Apple is simply doing the same thing they did when they introduced ProRes. Not so many years ago you had to worry about the codec your Quicktime video file was using and it was a nightmare. Many people just stuck with uncompressed video to avoid the pain. Apple introduced ProRes and suddenly the post production world could focus on editing instead of file wrangling.
ProRes RAW promises to do the same thing for RAW that the original ProRes did for uncompressed video. The big difference is this time around the format will launch as an acquisition format. It’s going to be huge and no amount of complaining is going to change that.
We are going to be able to execute multi-cam raw edits on an iMac! Good times!