PC/Windows NLE Mess - Jan - what can be done?

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Read page 73 of the AVID XPRESS Pro HD manual, it explains capturing DVC Pro HD footage for the PC.

Has anyone else been able to edit the footage with this particular software on the PC
 
stephenvv said:
Quad G5 is fast machine but Quad Opteron is faster still.
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actually the quad kills dual 275 opterons.. to beat the quad you gotta move to the 280's... which, at $1400 per CPU costs almost as much for the procs then that entire mac quad g5 ready to go.
 
Holy smokes - I step away for some location scouting and a read-thru and all hell has broken loose!

But to note Barry's comments:

Barry_Green said:
Do you honestly believe that we haven't been doing that? Seriously. I have been hammering, pounding, kicking, screaming, bleeding and causing bleeding. I've facilitated conference calls and meetings, I've sent demo files to people who needed to get them. I've put people in the same room together who needed to get in the room together. I've laid out business plans for both sides. I even went so far as to contact certain key software developers about creating my own DVCPRO-HD codec.

It's been done. What can be said has been said. I've done what I can to get the grownups from each company to communicate, and now the grownups are in the same room and they're talking to each other. Whether a satisfactory result will come about remains to be seen. But it's absolutely not for a lack of trying!
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To summarize, the smartest guy in the room has come to the table and has, weeks/months earlier, directed the attention of all of the "players" to the issue. Apparently Barry has grasped them all by the respective backs of their respective oily heads and slammed their faces into the massive, corporate oak table to get them to pay attention ... but all to no avail.

So Barry has earlier perceived what the rest of us are now just picking up on. And despite his obviously Herculian efforts, no one has listened. Despite the business advantages to the NLE publishers and Panasonic, no one has listened. We, the stakeholders who are about to plunk down not insignificant funds for a new HVX, are left to fend for ourselves. In the dark. Blindfolded. Wearing ear muffs.

Isn't that just confirming the point the rest of us have been making in these posts regarding their concerns?

Make no mistake. I want my HVX. But I also want to personally edit the results it produces - not have to send my footage to a Mac-based editing shop. The fact that it appears that no one (apparently) to date believes there is a business model for a PC-based NLE merely makes me think twice about this purchase.

And the fact that Barry has apparently fought so hard for this cause (for which we are grateful) but without success affirms that perhaps our concerns are well founded.
 
your right Dahopafilms.. 16 pages and we are all fighting over the same crap at the foundation.. that PC NLE makers dropped the ball. Some of us changed platforms because of it, some of us didnt. The ones who didnt change, are just super pissed off right now because they feel left in the dark.. us who changed got over it. Its made for a hostile topic, cause the PC camp is trying to squeeze water from a rock... its just venting. And as much as me and Barry and David all have talked to the upper guys over at sony we just can only do so much before giving up.

so yes vent.. and make your mind up on whats going on. Dont buy the HVX if its gonna just piss you off.. I know i feel half responsible cause i was the one that half-convinced you to buy that Dell and Vegas only a few months ago.

So.. hell if you come down to LA i will make it up to you.. you can use my mac anytime you want. ha ha ha.
 
Dahopafilms said:
The fact that it appears that no one (apparently) to date believes there is a business model for a PC-based NLE merely makes me think twice about this purchase.
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Ummm... let's back up and put this in a proper light.

It's grossly inaccurate to say that "no one" to date believes etc. Canopus obviously believes in it, as they have (by all reports and by the demo at NAB) end-to-end, 100% MXF/DVCPRO-HD integration in all flavors and at all frame rates. Avid obviously believes it because they've developed native support, but apparently they haven't gotten all the kinks worked out yet. Pinnacle must believe something because they've got native MXF and P2 support; they're just behind the curve in offering HD. Matrox sees the point, they're making their AXIO with native support for all modes. Apple saw the point, they jumped on the prospects nearly two years ago and have a complete end-to-end solution out there (with only the caveat that it requires the unwrap/rewrap to QT step).

Far from saying "no one" sees the benefit, it's much more accurate to say that there are only two players who DON'T (yet). And that's Adobe and Vegas. And Adobe is rumored rather heavily to be introducing full support in Premiere Pro 2.0 at NAB.

So that leaves Vegas. Which is, unfortunately, part of perhaps a larger "Sony and Panasonic" issue. I mean, the elephant in the room is: does Sony's ownership of Vegas influence the cooperation process? On both sides? I wish it didn't, but it's hard to ignore.

In any case, it looks like Marcus van Bavel's going to put out a stopgap that may render the majority of the issue moot.

In two days there may be a beta released which provides the way towards a solution; that means that every major NLE on the market works (to some degree or more) with the HVX. I'd say that's a pretty good state to be in for something that's been on the market barely a week.

And the fact that Barry has apparently fought so hard for this cause (for which we are grateful) but without success affirms that perhaps our concerns are well founded.
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My concerns are that Sony and Panasonic may have difficulty seeing past their historical differences to see that a marriage here is best for both of them.

Here's another little tidbit for you: Sony just hired an Apple exec and put him in charge of their software division, to bring some Apple design magic and order to their house. Could there possibly be any better news?

The thing is, these companies are huge. Behemoths. And their Japanese heritage and historic rivalry may complicate matters. If it was all up to Sonic Foundry's Madison, WI Vegas team, I bet you we'd have support already. But it's not that way anymore. Negotiations apparently need to take place, and agreements signed, and licensing, and proprietary technology change hands... and there will likely be lawyers present too.

But they are at the table and they are talking. And, for clarification, I'm not in those negotiations -- I just did what I could to make sure that the right people talked to the right people, and badgered 'em until the phone calls were made. But from here on out it's all up to them.
 
Jarred Land said:
I know i feel half responsible cause i was the one that half-convinced you to buy that Dell and Vegas only a few months ago.

So.. hell if you come down to LA i will make it up to you.. you can use my mac anytime you want. ha ha ha.
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Holy smokes - I forgot about your Vegas recommendation!

If I was tall enough and could reach that high, I'd *****-slap yer ugly puss.

Having said that (for which I feel much better, by the way), I still haven't discounted the HVX purchase. I just need to take a reality check to determine whether any of the other NLE options for the PC will realistically be available or whether I would be forced to go Mac (at significantly greater cost and marital risks).

In the meantime, I have just one secret word. Elcassette. It's also an age test. And you, Jarred, my young friend, just failed.
 
you can take your super cassettes and record me laughing at you over here.

Anyways Dahopa.. in case some of that went over your head that Barry said.. A DVmaker is making an app, that should be very cost effective.. that will take your P2 files from the cards and make them a nice pretty format that works in Vegas. That comes out as beta in a couple days.

So your not totally screwed.. you have one more program you need to open to convert all your footage with, but its still a solution till everyone catches up.
 
Barry_Green said:
... and there will likely be lawyers present too.

But they are at the table and they are talking. And, for clarification, I'm not in those negotiations ...
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1. Hate them lawyers. Bastards!

2. If it was a perfect world, you would be in those negotiations, Barry.

But if it doesn't all work out, let's make our own NLE! "Dammit Jim, we're not programmers - we're film makers!" Or wanna-be film makers, anyway (using the HVX and a PC-based editing system).

And in fairness to Panasonic, I've reviewed their promotional literature in the last ten minutes and no where (at least that I've found) do they use the term "Prosumer" in relation to the HVX. So if they're marketing it as a professional camera, perhaps our expectations for a PC-based NLE are indeed ill-founded.
 
Dahopafilms said:
1. Hate them lawyers. Bastards!

2. If it was a perfect world, you would be in those negotiations, Barry.

But if it doesn't all work out, let's make our own NLE! "Dammit Jim, we're not programmers - we're film makers!" .
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just so you know.. Barry is a programmer.. he was the first employee at Westwood Studios (pc software company).. and if you couldnt tell already, probally is the more intelligent well spoken guy out here.

Its a good idea.. come on barry, its only a few hundred thousand lines of code :)
 
FYI - Edius Broadcast is NOT available for demo, only Edius Pro 3 which does not support P2 or any flavor of DVCPro.

Someone is going to have to plunk down $900 to figure out how well it works or get Canopus to send Barry a copy...
 
stephenvv said:
FYI - Edius Broadcast is NOT available for demo, only Edius Pro 3 which does not support P2 or any flavor of DVCPro.
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Yes, I found that out to my dismay. I took home the demo CD from DV Expo and didn't get too far with it.

Someone is going to have to plunk down $900 to figure out how well it works or get Canopus to send Barry a copy...
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Now THAT would be sweet! :)
 
stephenvv said:
FYI - Edius Broadcast is NOT available for demo, only Edius Pro 3 which does not support P2 or any flavor of DVCPro.

Someone is going to have to plunk down $900 to figure out how well it works or get Canopus to send Barry a copy...
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i tried too 2 weeks ago before i bought the mac.. i tried avid, it didnt work, so i phoned around and nobody had it.. not sure when its supposed to be out there, but i couldnt find it at the time.. i woulda bought it sight unseen.
 
Lets inject a bit of reality here.
Firstly no one can just up and add DVCProHD support the their NLE, they need both a licence and the SDK from Panasonic. At least one not insignificant player in the field cannot even get a price out of them much less the tools to do the job. Perhaps Jan would like to speak up and tell us all what a DVCPro HD licence costs and what the terms are. A better question might be why they haven't put the whole kit in the public domain
Secondly, the DCProHD content on the P2 cards comes in a MXF wrapper. To Sonys credit each and every XDCAM disk comes with a free, gratis, no cost, easy to install viewer and very basic editing application. That's right, just take the disk out of the camera and install the code, for free.
Why, oh why haven't Panasonic at least offered that much, OK I'm not suggesting it should be on the P2 cards but it could be on a $1 CD that ships with the camera, heaven forbid they could even write something that runs on Macs and PCs. At the moment to view the footage you've got to load it into a NLE, that for my money is a huge step backwards for any cameraman compared to XDCAM when the client wants to see what you just shot.
Even switching to FCP doesn't address this issue, why should you have to lug around a power book with FCP on it just so the client can view the footage, and then what, when the client wants to show the footage to someone else, are we going to buy him a Powerbook with FCP on it?
 
well robroysyd.. sorry to break it to you.. but guess what comes with the HVX.. a nice little application called P2 viewer that you install and can view footage... on your damn PC. so pleeeeaaaasseeee everyone stop whining. I think everyone needs to calm down a bit.. people are bitching about things they dont know absolutely anything about... and spreading bad info makes it just worse.

There are what.. 4 people that actually have the camera here out of 10,000 members... lets ease up a bit and wait till the product is actually floating around and we give the NLE's at least 2 weeks to address things.

As for showing the client what you just shot.. the HVX in camera has the absolute fastest playback of any professional camera ever made... and is actually organized.

Oh.. and Jan is the wrong person to ask about the license.. thats not her job, not even in her same branch. DVCpro codec is not a free codec.. there is an entire organization within panasonic that makes a business out of it. They arn't just gonna give out SDK's like candy.

sorry if i sound a little agitated.. I'm just getting tired of people going off thinking they know the entire story when they dont even take a minute to read what comes in the box.
 
Jarred Land said:
sorry if i sound a little agitated.. I'm just getting tired of people going off thinking they know the entire story when they dont even take a minute to read what comes in the box.
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The problem is that none of us HAVE the box... :(
 
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