Panasonic's new version of HPX300

dregenthal said:
"I don't think it's unreasonable . . ."

It's not unreasonable, it's ridiculous.
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I don't think it's ridiculous at all. Barry suggested that we sell our HPX300s on the secondary market - and take about $4000 - $5000 or so against the $8000 we bought in at just months ago. I could be wrong on just how much the 300 will be worth in the secondary market, but Panasonic seemingly puts zero value on the model.

Look, they make upgrade path boards like the AJ-YBX200G for bringing AVCIntra to the bigger VariCam line, why not help the many, many users of the 300 pay their own way into a better camera if it is a simple bench swap?

Nobody is asking for a hand-out here. But people who bought the 300 have a right to ask, "why not, Panasonic"?

One more thing, if you reply to this thread with your thoughts on a 300 upfit, please actually have an HPX300 in your kit. Otherwise you're just so much noise.

Erik Olson HPX300 Owner
 
I don't quite understand the business sense of putting other companies' interests in front of your own. Sniffing after a cost upgrade for the 300/301 can only improve things for our business (if it means better pics and not having to hire a faster camera now and again) and hardly seems unreasonable given a basic knowlege of the likely technical feasibility. It may, best case scenario, only be a firmware upgrade - no harm exploring options is there?

If owners didnt 'ask' do you think Canon would have been so forthcoming with the new firmware for the EOS 5D? Are you aware that Avid are offering a terrific upgrade deal to users of the now discontinued Liquid product, saving them c $1500? They could have adopted a 'tough - things move on' attitude, like some here. But no, they did the decent thing...and kept a customer for many more years (spending on hardware and upgrades etc). Software admitedly is 'easier to manage, but the principle is the same as hardware (esp if the customer is covering hardware costs and a margin...). Why be so defeatist?

I hope Panasonic continue to buck the trend on customer service and really deliver for 300/301 owners. It would shake the tree too to all our benefit.

D
 
Erik Olson said:
Look, they make upgrade path boards like the AJ-YBX200G for bringing AVCIntra to the bigger VariCam line, why not help the many, many users of the 300 pay their own way into a better camera if it is a simple bench swap?

Nobody is asking for a hand-out here. But people who bought the 300 have a right to ask, "why not, Panasonic"?

One more thing, if you reply to this thread with your thoughts on a 300 upfit, please actually have an HPX300 in your kit. Otherwise you're just so much noise.

Erik Olson HPX300 Owner
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Yes, they did make the hpx2000/2100 upgradable to avc-i. BUT that's a 25k camera body and the Avc-i board is a 3500$ upgrade. A different league than a Hpx300, which I suspect the engineering also reflects. The 300 is built to fit budget users, thus putting the electronics from the VF inside the body and simplify in general. Adding room for exchangeable sensor might increase the price more than costumers are willing to pay.

Yes it would be nice, but also a 8000$ broadcast camera should pay for itself in about a year and then justify selling it and getting the hpx370. Also you already have the rest of the kit(tripod, battery system etc.), so a new 370 shouldn't be that expensive with the cash from a 300 sale.

No, I don't own a 300....due to a few weeks delay last spring I had to get the 500 instead. So no "hard feelings" regarding the 300 :happy:, a great piece of kit.
 
I would like a sensor upgrade option if it's economically feasible.

Is it "ridiculous" to ask for one.... sheesh.

Does Panasonic "owe" it to me- No.

Neither do I owe Panasonic my business (which at last count has included five Panasonic cameras). The free market works both ways.

...."but, technology marches on- blah blah blah".

I'm not one to usually get bent out of shape by these things, but this product cycle appears to be more about an overly calculated product release cycle than technology taking a quantum leap forward.

Economic fallacy rebuttal:

ROI based on when the product is paid off is short sighted and a recipe for long term profit stagnation. Return on investment BEGINS when the product is paid off and continues for the viable length of service. Up until that time it is an expense. For many if not most, continuing to cycle through cameras every year is not a business plan for success. To the degree that it is truly warranted, one is obliged to participate, but many of these release time tables are yes- "ridiculous".

A business based on the constant upgrade model is akin to tenant farming- constant and perpetual labor without realizing or owning the fruits of your labor. Kind of like being a U.S. citizen.... but I digress. ;-O

I had the best year ever in 2009, but it's a different story this year- so far business is quite slow. That certainly plays into my unwillingness to play the upgrade game like I may have in the past.

If nothing else, I'd like (really like) to see Panasonic optimize the 300 to the greatest degree possible through firmware upgrades. In the mean time there are other fish in the sea and CPU upgrades to be had.

Take what you like and leave the rest.
 
Christian m said:
Yes, they did make the hpx2000/2100 upgradable to avc-i. BUT that's a 25k camera body and the Avc-i board is a 3500$ upgrade. A different league than a Hpx300, which I suspect the engineering also reflects. The 300 is built to fit budget users, thus putting the electronics from the VF inside the body and simplify in general. Adding room for exchangeable sensor might increase the price more than costumers are willing to pay.

Yes it would be nice, but also a 8000$ broadcast camera should pay for itself in about a year and then justify selling it and getting the hpx370. Also you already have the rest of the kit(tripod, battery system etc.), so a new 370 shouldn't be that expensive with the cash from a 300 sale.

No, I don't own a 300....due to a few weeks delay last spring I had to get the 500 instead. So no "hard feelings" regarding the 300 :happy:, a great piece of kit.
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You don't have a need, so you really don't need to have an opinion.

Nobody here is asking for something for nothing. I see no evidence that anyone is demanding their money back or threatening to sue. If any position is ridiculous, it is the one from people who have no interest in the matter, but insist that HPX300 owners shouldn't even ask Panasonic about the viability of an upgrade.

Imagine if you'd just started working that HPX500 and then, within a couple months, found that the HPX500 camera sensors had been updated to true HD? Same body. Are you telling me that you'd just chalk it up to so much "that's just how it is" bad luck?

Notice that no one is bitching about the new, improved range / quality lens that comes bundled with the HPX370? That's because it's a kit consideration, just like free P2 cards or an Anton Bauer battery system and no one is surprised when those specifications change.

At this point, I'm more frustrated with those who can't help interjecting their worthless opinions than I am with Panasonic's silence on the matter.

Zip it!
 
Erik Olson said:
Barry suggested that we sell our HPX300s on the secondary market - and take about $4000 - $5000 or so against the $8000 we bought in at just months ago.
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I'm not suggesting anyone do anything, I'm only saying that that's the only trade-in program that exists for any of the manufacturers. That's how it's always been done, and that's what an owner could do, so it's not like you're starting from scratch.

I don't know what a used 300 would go for, but I think $5,000 is probably a little low.

I could be wrong on just how much the 300 will be worth in the secondary market, but Panasonic seemingly puts zero value on the model.
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How is that a reasonable statement? There hasn't been a trade-in upgrade ever. You couldn't trade a DVX100 in for a DVX100A, you couldn't trade a DVX100A in for a DVX100B, you couldn't trade a DVX100B in for an HVX200, you couldn't trade an HVX200 in for an HVX200A, you can't trade in an HVX200 or 200A for an HPX170. Has anyone successfully traded in a Z1U on an EX1, or an EX1 on an EX1R, or an EX1 on an EX3? I don't think so.

It's just not something that's done.

Lest anyone misunderstand where I'm coming from: I have pitched several trade-in/upgrade ideas to Panasonic. I think it'd be magnificent if they did it. But I do not expect them to, because this type of thing isn't done. If you want a trade-in program, look to the car dealers as a model -- trade-in of older models to buy newer ones is done all the time, but it's done at the DEALER level, not at the manufacturer level. Perhaps Abel or Spec-Comm or B&H will come up with some sort of trade-in program. There's obviously interest in such a program.

Look, they make upgrade path boards like the AJ-YBX200G for bringing AVCIntra to the bigger VariCam line, why not help the many, many users of the 300 pay their own way into a better camera if it is a simple bench swap?
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If it is such a simple swap, I would indeed encourage them to offer it.

Nobody is asking for a hand-out here. But people who bought the 300 have a right to ask, "why not, Panasonic"?
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Agreed. And we are asking. But just recognize that it's not something that's done, so don't expect it.

One more thing, if you reply to this thread with your thoughts on a 300 upfit, please actually have an HPX300 in your kit. Otherwise you're just so much noise.
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Sorry, just adding noise here. :P
 
Well said Erik.

Here in the UK I just heard that Alan Roberts my BBC guru was due to test the 370 but panasonic UK couldn't get one.

Could it be that this is an NTSC upgrade only? I personally don't have problems with the noise on my two 301's and the skew is OK and liveable with too.

Alan said in his BBC report that the 301 was no worse for noise than any other broadcast camera so with me already having most of the extra functions such as PAL/NTSC will this be for you NTSC guys only???

Certainly none of the european panasonic dealers have the camera listed and with the BBC still using Alan Roberts to test their cameras wouldn't panasonic have provided one for their tests?
 
FYI - B&H has a used equipment calculator. For a "like new" camera with all the manufacturer accessories included, they'll give you $3,750. Based on that number alone, I'd say a used HPX300 is worth a good bit more on the marketplace or eBay. There are people bidding on Canon GL1 for $1,000 on eBay...people still pay good money for older equipment, even if it is obsolete by someone else's standards.

Still, if you MUST have the new HPX370, I would hope you've at least made up a little bit of the money you spent on it, with the difference and then some being added to that by selling the camera. All your accessories (power, etc) should still work just dandy on the 370.

Sorry for the noise. I break rules all the time, bit of a bad habit.
 
Barry_Green said:
I'm not suggesting anyone do anything, I'm only saying that that's the only trade-in program that exists for any of the manufacturers. That's how it's always been done, and that's what an owner could do, so it's not like you're starting from scratch.

I don't know what a used 300 would go for, but I think $5,000 is probably a little low.

How is that a reasonable statement? There hasn't been a trade-in upgrade ever. You couldn't trade a DVX100 in for a DVX100A, you couldn't trade a DVX100A in for a DVX100B, you couldn't trade a DVX100B in for an HVX200, you couldn't trade an HVX200 in for an HVX200A, you can't trade in an HVX200 or 200A for an HPX170. Has anyone successfully traded in a Z1U on an EX1, or an EX1 on an EX1R, or an EX1 on an EX3? I don't think so.

If it is such a simple swap, I would indeed encourage them to offer it.

Agreed. And we are asking. But just recognize that it's not something that's done, so don't expect it.

Sorry, just adding noise here. :P
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Barry,

On the noise issue, I'll just say that, as the person who wrote the book, you have an uncommon insight into Panasonic, their lines and underlying technology. I also know that you aren't beholden to them and consider you a stronger advocate for the community than the manufacturer. Done on that.

My position is my position and it's far from one of unrealistic black-magic voodoo. I'm not asking for Panasonic to consider a trade-in program for the HPX300 camera. I don't believe I've suggested that - ever. Would I take advantage of it? If I could swap the two for the $2500 difference, certainly it would be worth looking at.

I'm asking for an upgrade path. My concept is that Pansonic offers RANs to anyone with qualifying HPX300 cameras. These units go into a Panasonic Authorized Service Center for 2 - 6 weeks for a swap of the block, firmware upgrade and so on. Camera comes back rebadged as a HPX300/a or whatever they want to do. Owners pay the cost of shipping to Panasonic plus parts and labor.

If the form-factor or majority of the underlying electronics changed significantly between the 300 and 370, then my concept of a bench-swap on the imager board / block obviously isn't realistic. Then your concept of liquidating the asset through the secondary market is the best option.

I don't know anything about RED's model for business, but I believe they've made some effort to allow for upgrading within the RED One. RED owners seem to feel some allegiance toward RED for their efforts in this regard -- even though owners pay for each and every upgrade.

Me, I realize that it might seem sophomoric to say Panasonic values the HPX300 at $0. But it's next to true. Do they have a buy-back program for all the dealers who have HPX300s still on the shelves? What is the value of the HPX300 when the HPX370 is sitting next to it at B&H or Spec-Comm.? Not $8000.

I realize we could go on all day about how Panasonic quietly phased-out their newest model for... the identical camera. I'll say it again, the HPX300 was a brilliantly-conceived, bargain-priced Swiss Army knife of a beta unit -- one which unfortunately suffers from one major issue for most types of video work. And that is not noise, but SKEW.

Panasonic thought so little of the camera (or it's sales performance), that they ABANDONED IT. Before you say this is normal, I'd love for someone to post another single example of Panasonic Broadcast discontinuing a much-heralded year-old model - while simultaneously rebadging that effort into the same shell with one core component changed.

Consider the HDX900, VariCam (all models, flavors), HVX200 and DVX100 and I don't believe you'll see one other instance of it. How many VariCams were there? F and H?

At the end of the day, it's a lot of noise over a $3k - $4k. And my doctor would certainly remind me that I'm "...not supposed to 'get excited'" about things out of my control. So I'll just stop here.

Panasonic could earn a lot of respect from the people who are already loyal customers by offering to do the right thing this time. And we'll all pay for the priveledge.
 
Christian m said:
a 8000$ broadcast camera should pay for itself in about a year
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I think there is a gulf between the people who run production companies here and use the camera a few times a month and maybe full time freelance cameramen who hope to charge their kit out daily. However, having said that, there is no way on earth a freelance cameraman in the UK using a 300/301 would pay for it in a year. Broadcast cameramen (and I mean BROADCAST differently to the way you use it as I dont consider the 301 a broadcast camera)) can and do make a ROI on Digi Beta/HDCam but not in a year and no one here yet wants 1/3" P2. Its still too new/different/missunderstood/bad-mouthed. Career broadcast freelancers just do not own them.

So, Christian, explain to me the maths/situation here in saying this as I think many of you are in a different world on investment/ROI/upgrade realities. Or maybe there is just tons of broadcast HPX 300 work out there where you are?

BD (who just upgraded his chip today - from 2.4GHz to 3.0Ghz- Intel not Panasonic;) )
 
Here's all I have to say: I would APPRECIATE Panasonic - if it's POSSIBLE - offering us an upgrade path AT OUR COST to change our 300s into 370s. It that's being "ridiculous," or "unreasonable" or "just isn't done in this industry," then Panasonic has an opportunity to break the mold of old thinking!

Either way, I don't think it's unreasonable to ask the question and that's all the majority of us - as 300 owners who have invested actual money into this camera system - are asking for.
 
Some of this discussion reminds me of that classic line to describe a company doomed to regress due to its own closed-minded thinking:
"But we've never done it that way before!"
 
Erik Olson said:
If the form-factor or majority of the underlying electronics changed significantly between the 300 and 370, then my concept of a bench-swap on the imager board / block obviously isn't realistic.
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Erik, I think everything you're asking for is perfectly reasonable, and I have tried to make that case (and a few other creative options) to them. All I'm saying is that while I agree, it's pretty much unprecedented, so I don't expect it to happen. But I think it'd be a great thing for them to offer.

I don't know anything about RED's model for business, but I believe they've made some effort to allow for upgrading within the RED One. RED owners seem to feel some allegiance toward RED for their efforts in this regard -- even though owners pay for each and every upgrade.
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The Red's sensor upgrade is the first and only time I think this has been done in this industry. And that upgrade is $5,000. I applaud them for making it available, even though I seriously question whether an HPX300 user would be willing to pay $5,000 for a sensor block change.

Panasonic thought so little of the camera (or it's sales performance), that they ABANDONED IT. Before you say this is normal, I'd love for someone to post another single example of Panasonic Broadcast discontinuing a much-heralded year-old model - while simultaneously rebadging that effort into the same shell with one core component changed.
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Um, DVX100 to DVX100A? I think that was one year.
DVX100A to DVX100B? I think that was 18 months.
HVX200 to HVX200A? That's absolutely directly comparable, the changeout is the sensor block and nothing else, but there was I think three years between.

But, the point is, single component changes result in new models. Sorry, but it *is* normal.

As far as I understand it, Panasonic went to market with what they could make at the time, and yes it had the skew issue. In the intervening year, they've either developed a new chip block, or bought one from someone else, that solves the issue (or, as someone else has said, it minimizes it to where it's the same as everyone else). So they really have two choices:
1) try to shove this new technology under the rug and pretend there's no problem, or
2) take advantage of the new technology and make a new product. Which, by the way, costs a lot more than the prior offering -- it's not like the 370 costs less, the price differential between the two (factoring in the incentives and rebates) is about $3,000, isn't it?

Panasonic could earn a lot of respect from the people who are already loyal customers by offering to do the right thing this time. And we'll all pay for the priveledge.
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I agree. I do, however, have to point out that it's unprecedented, and therefore it's unlikely to happen, and it really shouldn't be some manner of dealbreaker because nobody else does it either (excepting the Red sensor upgrade and the Red buyback/trade-in towards Epic). Sony hasn't ever done it, JVC hasn't ever done it, Canon certainly didn't go trading in XLH1 cameras for XLH1s's, or XHA1 cameras for XHA1s's, etc...

All I'm saying is: keep it in perspective. I've never seen what we're discussing happen before (except with Red, and if you want to talk about "beta testers", I mean, come on...) I believe it would be in everyone's best interest to find a way to make this happen, so that nobody loses. I hope it's possible. I don't know that it is.
 
Barry_Green said:
Which, by the way, costs a lot more than the prior offering -- it's not like the 370 costs less, the price differential between the two (factoring in the incentives and rebates) is about $3,000, isn't it?
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Comparing list prices, the difference is exactly $1,000. The HPX300 listed at $10,700 and the HPX370 shows a list price of $11,700. Another reason I suspect the ONLY thing that's changed is the optical block. So, charge us the extra $1,000 and throw in another $500-$1,000 for your time. I'd pay it - in a heartbeat...
 
mountainmedia said:
Comparing list prices, the difference is exactly $1,000..
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Yes, but that's not how they were actually priced. The HPX300 included about $1,000 worth of P2 cards, and an $800 rebate. So when you're talking about cash out of pocket, the HPX370 will cost about $3,000 more than the HPX300.
 
Hmmm, free USB P2 card reader and 32GB P2 card in the UK. That's quite the incentive.

It'll be interesting to see what Panasonic USA offers.

- Mikko
 
mikkowilson said:
Hmmm, free USB P2 card reader and 32GB P2 card in the UK. That's quite the incentive.

It'll be interesting to see what Panasonic USA offers.

- Mikko
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Yeap that sounds good but "again" when you convert the currency 8,500£ = 13.000$ :) almost 3.000$ for a 32gb P2 and the reader:) I'm always jealous with american fellas, you all live in a very cheap world:)

I think i'll get my camera from NYC, London to NY flight + 1 week hotel + 1 week hanging around NY and turn back to London with my camera including P2 cards, will probably gonna cost me 13k:)
 
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