OK, now we must all swear to keep this a secret until it is revealed on the 5th.
Or is it plead the 5th?
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Panasonic's new version of HPX300
- Thread starter photojournalist
- Start date
OK, now we must all swear to keep this a secret until it is revealed on the 5th.
Or is it plead the 5th?
CinemaElectronika
Well-known member
That's FUNNY!
nedcam
Well-known member
I've seen this movie before. About ten years ago I bought the very hot Sony 1/2" DVCAM DSR 300. But then Sony several months later came out with a 300A which had firewire out, then a model with 16x9.
Then...Sony brought out the DSR500 as 16x9 got hot with 2/3" so my 300 was dead in the water. Very similar to the situation we are now all in (if there is a 370). Although my Sony DSR300 took a very nice image it was hard to compete when clients who were TECHNICALLY SAVVY inquired as to my model. If I was producing I could use it but to work as a freelance cameraman, having the "orphan" model is ALWAYS a handicap. My point is that Sony will do it to you just as Panny is doing it to us, it's a bad time to buy anything since technology is marching on so rapidly. You can't expect them to tell us when something better is coming or else we wouldn't buy what's presently out there. As a freelance DP who produces now and then, I think the best thing is to have great relationships with rental situations. We are in a state of flux although most of my Chicago area high end competitors have settled on the 2700 as the "new Varicam". The 300 I felt was positioned to combat the tidal wave of 200 competitors.
By the way, I have never had a problem with noise nor have any of the picky editors who deal with my footage on much nicer monitors than mine ever complained. I usually shoot -3db but at times have gone to +3db, I do not see the noise some people are complaining about. I'm starting to think there may be a great variation in the chips that are used? I remember when we first transitioned form tubes to CCDs there was a lot of controversy on the chip quality variations of the lower priced models. Perhaps that's why one 300 owner is happy and another rages about noise?
So following this thread has been disconcerting. My 300 paid for itself last week, I always keep a spreadsheet on gear. I figured it would hold it's own for the market that wanted something better than a 200 (like nice handheld and a lens with reach) yet didn't have the budget for a 2700. As Mountain Media said it's perfect if you're producing your own projects, but for a freelance DP having the old or former model is a definite detriment, especially if the tech savvy potential client knows the drawback of your orphanned model.
Yesterday I had a tutorial on DSLRs trying to figure which model to get good at, perhaps purchase, so all this 300 vs 370 comparison may just be chatter if we have to compete and get good with the DSLR look, or maybe even 3D? Today I filmed the Secretary of Labor and before the event started I talked with all the network guys and they were evenly split between Sony XDCAM disc and Panny P2, so getting into bed with either is premature. My point is consider the 300, or 370, as "interim" models. They have to pay for themselves very very quickly in order to make us revenue because a damn 390, or 380 with 2/3", or 395 with non-CMOS will come out.
Lastly, I think I read every post in this thread but can't remember seeing any from Jan Crittendon. Isn't she supposed to be the Den Mother of our Cub Scout troop here? Please correct me if I'm wrong. Don't we need some warm milk and cookies about now?
Then...Sony brought out the DSR500 as 16x9 got hot with 2/3" so my 300 was dead in the water. Very similar to the situation we are now all in (if there is a 370). Although my Sony DSR300 took a very nice image it was hard to compete when clients who were TECHNICALLY SAVVY inquired as to my model. If I was producing I could use it but to work as a freelance cameraman, having the "orphan" model is ALWAYS a handicap. My point is that Sony will do it to you just as Panny is doing it to us, it's a bad time to buy anything since technology is marching on so rapidly. You can't expect them to tell us when something better is coming or else we wouldn't buy what's presently out there. As a freelance DP who produces now and then, I think the best thing is to have great relationships with rental situations. We are in a state of flux although most of my Chicago area high end competitors have settled on the 2700 as the "new Varicam". The 300 I felt was positioned to combat the tidal wave of 200 competitors.
By the way, I have never had a problem with noise nor have any of the picky editors who deal with my footage on much nicer monitors than mine ever complained. I usually shoot -3db but at times have gone to +3db, I do not see the noise some people are complaining about. I'm starting to think there may be a great variation in the chips that are used? I remember when we first transitioned form tubes to CCDs there was a lot of controversy on the chip quality variations of the lower priced models. Perhaps that's why one 300 owner is happy and another rages about noise?
So following this thread has been disconcerting. My 300 paid for itself last week, I always keep a spreadsheet on gear. I figured it would hold it's own for the market that wanted something better than a 200 (like nice handheld and a lens with reach) yet didn't have the budget for a 2700. As Mountain Media said it's perfect if you're producing your own projects, but for a freelance DP having the old or former model is a definite detriment, especially if the tech savvy potential client knows the drawback of your orphanned model.
Yesterday I had a tutorial on DSLRs trying to figure which model to get good at, perhaps purchase, so all this 300 vs 370 comparison may just be chatter if we have to compete and get good with the DSLR look, or maybe even 3D? Today I filmed the Secretary of Labor and before the event started I talked with all the network guys and they were evenly split between Sony XDCAM disc and Panny P2, so getting into bed with either is premature. My point is consider the 300, or 370, as "interim" models. They have to pay for themselves very very quickly in order to make us revenue because a damn 390, or 380 with 2/3", or 395 with non-CMOS will come out.
Lastly, I think I read every post in this thread but can't remember seeing any from Jan Crittendon. Isn't she supposed to be the Den Mother of our Cub Scout troop here? Please correct me if I'm wrong. Don't we need some warm milk and cookies about now?
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Barry_Green
Moderator
Jan isn't over the HPX300 line anymore. With the retirement of one of the product managers, the lines were reorganized -- all shoulder-mount cameras went to one product manager, and Jan took over all handheld cameras (which is when she became product manager over the AVCCAM lineup, and she also handles the handheld P2's such as the HPX170 and HVX200A).
So if this conversation was taking place six months ago, you can bet Jan would have been all over it. But as of a few months ago she's not responsible for this line, and rather has her hands full with launching the new AVCCAM products like the new 3-D camera, etc. I'm sure she will still chime in on tech support issues etc., but I wouldn't expect her to comment on a thread such as this because it's about a product that's out of her jurisdiction.
Joe Calabrese
Well-known member
I don't know why everyone is so worried that they're being "ripped off" or fooled or whatnot just because we hear a rumor of a new model. Even if the 370 does come out, and even as early as predicted in this thread, I still think the 300 is a great camera. Everyone seems to think that just because a 370 comes out, a 300 is useless. I still think a 300 is a hell of a lot better than the EX1/3 or the JVC cameras. When I compared the PMW350 to the HPX300 at Abel Cine Tech in NY, I think that the 300 could, without a doubt, cut seamlessly (adjusting the scene files to have the same saturation, white balance, and sharpness) and the average person would never know the difference. Really, the 300 is a great camera, certainly better than anything else below $20k (with lens, I mean)
nedcam
Well-known member
Hi Barry,
Does this mean we will have a new Den Mother? Is there anyone from Panasonic for us to turn to on this and other issues? Are you it? Have we been thrown to the wolves (please excuse the hyperbole)? If a 370 does come out is there anyone we can ask questions to or are we all to hassle our individual dealers?
Best regards,
Ned
P.S. Where are the milk and cookies?
Does this mean we will have a new Den Mother? Is there anyone from Panasonic for us to turn to on this and other issues? Are you it? Have we been thrown to the wolves (please excuse the hyperbole)? If a 370 does come out is there anyone we can ask questions to or are we all to hassle our individual dealers?
Best regards,
Ned
P.S. Where are the milk and cookies?
groveChuck
U-matic Member
With so many types of cameras coming & going and so many different clients' needs, I think renting is now one very important key to survival, as hard as it might be to occasionally lose that profit source of your own paid-off camera. As your regional video dealer/rental house aptly puts it now: "If you own enough equipment for all of your needs, you own too much equipment!" Maybe it's an 80/20 rule and we own what can be used on 80% of our shoots.
Hadn't heard that about the 300 before and it's conceivable. Maybe we should be like the guitarists who check out all 10 $3000 Les Pauls in the store before finding The One.
The way they're going I think we'll all own one soon. Along with a decent full sized shoulder mount cam like the 300, they would cover most all situations in my case.
Even if this was still her beat, she couldn't discuss a camera that Panasonic wants to pretend doesn't exist. Isn't that right, Jan?
Bassman2003
Veteran
I would rent more often, but it just is not convenient. It adds not just cost to your bids but the time to drive across town either the day before your job or early the day of, make sure the equipment is setup the way you like or learn a bit about it, then return it aftrer the job.
That entire scenario for most of your work is too tedious. Is there a better way?
Plus, it takes a long time to get used to a camera and pull the best image out of it. Just picking a camera up and shooting for the day is just hoping you have some decent settings. I am just not big on renting.
That entire scenario for most of your work is too tedious. Is there a better way?
Plus, it takes a long time to get used to a camera and pull the best image out of it. Just picking a camera up and shooting for the day is just hoping you have some decent settings. I am just not big on renting.
I have the same problem with renting, and my clients tend to be people who REALLY have no (or very little) money to spend. I currently rent my friend's HVX200 kit, and sometimes he's nice enough to allow me to use it at litte/no cost. But, if I had to add $200-300 to my bids (that I won't even see), it makes it very hard to get that client who only has a few hundred dollars to spend.
I mean, I don't LIKE bottom feeding clients, but I have to take the work where I can get it. I wish I could just own my own HPX170, but even as cheap as they are right now, I can't afford the $5000 it would cost to buy my own. I've tried everything I can think of, but student loans, rent, and other bills are just too much.
I mean, I don't LIKE bottom feeding clients, but I have to take the work where I can get it. I wish I could just own my own HPX170, but even as cheap as they are right now, I can't afford the $5000 it would cost to buy my own. I've tried everything I can think of, but student loans, rent, and other bills are just too much.
paulears
Veteran
The thing of note is that Panasonic obviously read the forum - and I know other big manufacturers that do spend time reading what people are saying about them - but they only respond if they really have to put things straight! Yesterday - April Fools day (does this exist in the states) - a forum I look after hatched a cunningly thought out plan. We set up a website with a proper www address that appeared to look very similar to a large audio equipment manufacturers style - we didn't use their name, but copied their style, their fonts and colour scheme. On the page it hinted that a certain well known and loved/hated product was being discontinued and had a dealer log-in box - that was all.
We made the site live in March and by the 31st, Google had spidered it. Just before midnight we made an innocent post saying dealers seemed to be very low stock, and asking questions. Very soon, Googling found the web site and everyone was very cross/happy they were being cut from the range. By the middle of the next day - the manufacturer came onto the site to say the product was NOT being discontinued, and they even mentioned the date! Just goes to show that what people say on forums is noticed. You can bet Panasonic are very interested in how this topic runs!
We made the site live in March and by the 31st, Google had spidered it. Just before midnight we made an innocent post saying dealers seemed to be very low stock, and asking questions. Very soon, Googling found the web site and everyone was very cross/happy they were being cut from the range. By the middle of the next day - the manufacturer came onto the site to say the product was NOT being discontinued, and they even mentioned the date! Just goes to show that what people say on forums is noticed. You can bet Panasonic are very interested in how this topic runs!
Barry_Green
Moderator
Steve Cooperman is the new product manager for the HPX300/HPX500 series; he has been the manager for the HPX2000/2700/3000/3700 for quite a while.
I don't think he has much (if any) forum presence, but he (and the sales support engineers) are readily contactable for any support issues.
Dealers have traditionally been the first line of support, and are one main reason why professional camcorders are sold through dealers rather than just web box-houses. In lieu of having a major web presence from the manufacturer, we can do what we've always had to otherwise, which is share our experiences and answer each others' questions, and send e-mail or phone calls to the company representatives.
mikkowilson
Steadi-Guru
Well this is interesting.
I was checking to see the financing for the 300 had been extended; but when I clicked the "Low Financing" banner/link on the Panasonic video homepage; I got this PDF: ftp://ftp.panasonic.com/pub/Panasonic/business/provideo/finance/4QT2010_Summary_Finances_Promo.pdf
Apparently the financing has (again) been extended, until June 30; but instead of the 300, it now lists the 370.
I'm going to guess that this is fast roll out of the updated camera. I'm sure we'll hear more on the 5th; but as things stand now, I'm guessing we'll see production cameras at NAB.
- Mikko
I was checking to see the financing for the 300 had been extended; but when I clicked the "Low Financing" banner/link on the Panasonic video homepage; I got this PDF: ftp://ftp.panasonic.com/pub/Panasonic/business/provideo/finance/4QT2010_Summary_Finances_Promo.pdf
Apparently the financing has (again) been extended, until June 30; but instead of the 300, it now lists the 370.
I'm going to guess that this is fast roll out of the updated camera. I'm sure we'll hear more on the 5th; but as things stand now, I'm guessing we'll see production cameras at NAB.
- Mikko
nedcam
Well-known member
Local Chicago NBC affiliate WMAQ knows about, and plans to purchase 370s. How do I know this? A murder occurred yesterday 200 feet from my house and I was walking the dogs today and a satellite truck reporter asks me if I could answer some questions. The photog had a HPX2000 and I mention I have a 300 and he said they have some 300s but are going to be buying 370s. The only thing he knew about the differences was that it was in the chip being better in low light. I guess we were the last to know.
In regard to the post three up, there is a new economics theorem termed LISTENOMICS (Google it) about how companies in the age of Web 2.0 have to LISTEN to their customer base now that their customers have moved to social network sites and boards like this. It's especially important for B2C companies where people may trash talk a product. I know Japanese companies have always been good with incorporating consumer feedback with their auto industry, but I have never experienced the camera manufacturers ever giving a rat's ass about our opinion, the guys who use the gear day in and day out. I have never been sent a survey, have you? Do you personally know any prototype testers? When I had talked with Japanese reps at trade shows and suggested certain improvements in terms of placement of controls, etc., they never whipped out their note pads.
I know the smaller manufacturers of accessories lurk and throw in advice like Barry is kind enough to do but you'd think the camera manufacturers would do the same. After all, every couple of years we dump $8-50,000 in their lap for new gear. So no one should be surprised that the development and roll out of the 370 would be like this. Kind of feel like a prom date dumped right before the prom?
If Panasonic knew early adopters of the 300 had so many of the same complaints, wouldn't you think they would have come to this particular board and asked us our opinion? Maybe they should Google: Listenomics
But all in all I am very pleased with my 300 in terms of satisfying about 80% of my corporate work. If the need is for top notch quality I just rent 2700s and HDX900s anyway. After all, you can't make a Maserati out of a Volvo. Watch for me on the news tonight!
In regard to the post three up, there is a new economics theorem termed LISTENOMICS (Google it) about how companies in the age of Web 2.0 have to LISTEN to their customer base now that their customers have moved to social network sites and boards like this. It's especially important for B2C companies where people may trash talk a product. I know Japanese companies have always been good with incorporating consumer feedback with their auto industry, but I have never experienced the camera manufacturers ever giving a rat's ass about our opinion, the guys who use the gear day in and day out. I have never been sent a survey, have you? Do you personally know any prototype testers? When I had talked with Japanese reps at trade shows and suggested certain improvements in terms of placement of controls, etc., they never whipped out their note pads.
I know the smaller manufacturers of accessories lurk and throw in advice like Barry is kind enough to do but you'd think the camera manufacturers would do the same. After all, every couple of years we dump $8-50,000 in their lap for new gear. So no one should be surprised that the development and roll out of the 370 would be like this. Kind of feel like a prom date dumped right before the prom?
If Panasonic knew early adopters of the 300 had so many of the same complaints, wouldn't you think they would have come to this particular board and asked us our opinion? Maybe they should Google: Listenomics
But all in all I am very pleased with my 300 in terms of satisfying about 80% of my corporate work. If the need is for top notch quality I just rent 2700s and HDX900s anyway. After all, you can't make a Maserati out of a Volvo. Watch for me on the news tonight!
Matt Gottshalk
Resident Preditor
Panasonic, unlike most all large camera manufacturers, HAVE ALWAYS listened to it's customers.
Jan's presence here and on other forums and their always improving set of cameras prove that.
Jan's presence here and on other forums and their always improving set of cameras prove that.
Joe Calabrese
Well-known member
Yeah, I haven't seen a single Sony, Canon, or JVC rep on a forum to provide help to customers or even find ways to improve. I have to hand it to Panasonic, they do make a better camera than the other manufacturers, IMHO.