Panasonic unveiled G1-HD...

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John Caballero said:
What the heck is "video look"? I have no idea where the people get the notion that film is not sharp? 16mm is sharp, 35mm sharper, 70 mm even more so and IMAX, well just look at it. You soften it with filters and whatnot or in post.
Next time you go to the movies and watch a high production movie take a closer look at its crispiness and sharpness. Shallow DOF maybe, but the focused areas sharp as nails. Look at TV series like CSI and the same. Crispy chickens.

It is better to start with a sharp footage and have options in post.
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John Caballero said:
If you are part of this forum and the industry you are not a simple movie fan. Then again if you are s simple movie fan you shouldn't be a part of this forum or this industry.

????
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I consider myself a movie fan because I'm just starting to learn a little about the industry.
Maybe it's not the sharpness that is the problem but the 30fps? I don't know but that's the effect it has on me. You're the expert so you tell me why...
 
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yeah, partially cause that video is 30p and looks like General Hospital. Just watched the QT file. But I get what Squig is talking about. That's where a lot of times video/dv/hdv/ when shooting in low light/night just can't match the look of film. Dunno what it is. You can always tell.
 
When I watch film I like to see grain and...and lots of it. I should have said "it's far too clean". But it does look overly sharp and contrasty too....and I generally like contrasty but that's too much for me. The 5D stuff I've seen to date has just lacked some warmth that the D90 has in common with film.

You're talking to a guy that gets clean analogue audio, puts it through cheap nasty russian valves, digitises it and then distorts it to get the right sound.

John have you seen Christiane F or The panic in needle park? http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0082176/ http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0067549/

The 5D might be good for a disney movie but it's pretty useless to me without a lot of pixel destruction in post. why bother when the D90 has already done the work for me.
 
I consider myself a movie fan because I'm just starting to learn a little about the industry.
Maybe it's not the sharpness that is the problem but the 30fps? I don't know but that's the effect it does on me. You're the expert so you tell me why...
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Vimeo converts the footage to 24FPS in the first place. You can convert it in post as well. The web is not one of the best places to make a judgement and any footage, especially wirth the compression and stuff.

When you shoot something you decide what look your film or photograph for that matter, is going to have. Nothing is an accident. Depending on the talent involved there are so many levels to the final product. Not just 30fps. A show like CSI:Miami, by example,goes thru an incredible post production process to achieve its final look. Big budget movies shot on digital cameras or film go thru the best post production hands in the world. The amazing thing about the Mark 2 is that its producing very excellent images right out of the camera.

The 5D might be good for a disney movie but it's pretty useless to me without a lot of pixel destruction in post. why bother when the D90 has already done the work for me.
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It is better to have choices at the end. You can add noise, softness and whatnot in post. I feel the same about my photography work. I would never shoot a monochrome image off the bat when I have the choice of doing it in post. If I don't like it then I have the choice not to. It is terrible to lock everything. That is the most promising feature of the Scarlet, the RedRaw codec, developed exactly to give you so many wonderful choices at post.

BTW: The first moving images from Scarlet we have seen are VERY SHARP. And the lizzard looks gorgeous!
 
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I prefer the 5D MK II look to grainy film.


Don't get me wrong. I loved the look of say The Wrestler.


It was shot handheld on 16mm film and looked spectacularly fantastic!

It worked very very well and I'm not so sure the 5d would have done the same thing.

It really helped with the gritty feel.

But for this trailer and this type of gig it the 5D is spot on fantastic!

Better than 35mm!
 
Anyone ever see the show that used to air late night on MTV "Undressed" that's what that trailer looked like. Not a movie. Even on vimeo, and even MORE so from the raw QT file. It lacks "cinematic" and that could be what the director was going for for all I know. But that's like my opinion man, I'm sticking to it.
 
"I have no idea where the people get the notion that film is not sharp?"

Photography is about contrast. Every step reduces it: lens, film, sensor,compression. With film, every transfer, which introduces another lens and another film, reduces contrast. So in the end, sharp video is sharper than film.

That said, it is only recently that we have started using sensors with the resolution of film for video capture. However, those sensors are coupled with brutal compression. A camera like the EX1/3 or HPX300 shooting 1080p30 is sending 12bits per pixel x 2.07M pixels/sensor x 3 sensors x 30 frames/sec or 2.3Gb/sec to the camera's processor.That's a lot of information!

If the lens, low pass optical filter, and compression don't hammer it, that will have more contrast over a wider spatial frequency range then film. That sharpness is the 'video' look.

Grain on the other hand is either pushing the film or cheap film. Tri-X vs. Panatomic. With a Canon 5DM2 you could substitute actual texture for the grain. That would retain a 'gritty' look while not using film tricks to create it. In many cases isn't grain being substituted for the textures in nature...e.g. the stubble of a beard...that isn't being captured by the film?
 
Pricing in Japan

Pricing in Japan

I have skipped reading previous posts, so forgive me if this sort of info has already been posted.

I went to buy 5D mk2 today and found out GH1 will be out on 26th April at the price of 149800 yen with a kit lens. (around $1500)

I don't know which one I should go for anymore.
 
John Caballero said:
What the heck is "video look"? I have no idea where the people get the notion that film is not sharp?
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it's sharp, but also a bit diffused by nature of the grain structure, making edge contrast lower thus it looks softer, or smoother if you will to avoid suggesting that it's not sharp. it also has no aliasing so no fake detail, something that often makes video look artificially sharp. plus 35mm cinematographers have known since forever that it's still way too sharp for what they and their audience wants, so they soften and diffuse it further with nets, diffusion, smoke, flashing, post effects, and so on. john, you've hardly shot any film as far as i know, you only refer to other people's work and never your own experience, why don't you listen to us who work with this pretty much every day? i can assure you i know very well what most formats look like and what their respective pros and cons are. why? because i've shot them all in a professional setting, plus loads of tests and so on.

/matt
 
Um....what Mattias said X's 2

But I think the term sharp should really say "detailed" when it comes to film. Video can be just as detailed as film...but is most of the time sharp in a bad way (as described above). The differences in how they look is very obvious.
 
This conversation sounds like an old audio argument, "Tape vs. Digital". Digital removed the "Hiss" but killed the warmth. There are so many options this days in a recording studio that a record that would take 8 hours to record can go on and on for days with all the choices that ProTools offers. Not to mention all the analog effects that can be added i.e. tube mics, tube preamps the list goes on. There was also the magic of "tape compression" I won't explain that you have to hear it to understand it. The analog world imposes limitations that the artist needs to work with or around. The digital world, audio and video, gives the artist more choices which is not always a good thing.

What I like about the D90 is it's limitations. It makes me think before I shoot. The real sharp video is also good if you want options, "Fix It in the Mix".
 
I went to buy 5D mk2 today and found out GH1 will be out on 26th April at the price of 149800 yen with a kit lens. (around $1500)

I don't know which one I should go for anymore.
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I'm in the same boat.

There are pros and cons with both cameras, however, most of the analysis on picture quality so far can't be validated much on the GH1 since it hasn't been reviewed sufficiently by anyone. It's similar to how the HVX200 came out. We got all the specs first, then trickling in of footage, debate, more footage, and as we all saw more footage and reviews when shipping, we know the rest of the story. The HVX200 then sold like crazy in high demand with backorders and scarcity. That story is similar to the 5DMkII, however A) The 5DMkII buzz launched with the Vincent Laforet video (the HVX didn't launch like that at all, B) There are the Manual Controls/30p issue that we all have with the 5DMkII (there were lesser complaints with the HVX although I do remember clearly - people were EXTREMELY critical of it.

I predict the story to be similar again with the GH1. We're going to see video samples trickle in and we're going to love on it and hate on it, and as more footage comes in from increasingly creative people (key thing here), many people will be convinced and close the deal and get it. Considering if it's $1500? It's not much of a risk (but that could increase significantly after buying lenses). The 5DMkII is more of a risk in the face of the GH1 hitting the market and proving to be the more capable machine. That's when you cry if you purchased the 5DMkII only 2 months before the GH1 becomes a legendary camera of choice. Or just buy the 5DMkII now and stop reading up on cameras for 12 months+ and be productive with the investment.

This weekend I rented a 5DMkII to get some use, experience, and satisfaction out of it, and it's making it easier to potentially wait for the GH1 to arrive and know if it's the winner or not.


5DMkII Problems and Solutions
Lack of manual control over Aperture, Shutter, and ISO. Everything resets each time you record. Solution: Using Nikon lenses or taping Canon contacts, you can control aperture. You can lock exposure and then adjust. However, if you wait 10 seconds auto exposure turns back on. Bummer. You can't control ISO but don't really need to. However the giant issue is shutter speed control. In my opinion, with some trickery it can be controlled enough. In short, my experience this weekend has been "Damn this is easy to get incredible imagery out of this!" I actually see the benefit of auto exposure. Break out your pro camcorder and point at a dim room, then quickly point it at broad day light, and see how long it takes for you to get proper exposure. With the 5D AI, it takes about 1-2 seconds, then lock it and go.

30fps. Solution: A) Conform it to 24fps which slows down the footage, but that can be used creatively. B) Use Twixtor to interpolate footage to 24fps (LOTTA WORK). C) Just shoot everything in 30p if you don't really NEED to do 24p. This last point sparks the giant 30 vs 24 debate, but in my opinion, 30p has some advantage, just like 24p has some advantage. Put another way... what if you WANT to shoot 1080 30p on the GH1?

Higher price - the higher price is lessened by how many Nikon lenses I already have that I can use instantly. With the GH1, the smaller price tag is offset by the fact that I'm going to have to purchase new lenses to get prime/fast lenses in the focal lengths I want. I'd keep some 35mm lenses and sell the rest.

Need to transcode all footage - coming from the workflow with DVCPRO HD on the HVX, I'm not happy with transcoding, but it's worth it with either the 5D or GH1. ProRes or DVCPRO HD on a Mac is the way to go for me. Run it through compressor and go outside for awhile, or do something else light duty on your computer for awhile.

12 minute record limit - it's obvious how awful this is and eliminates this camera from doing anything that needs critical capture of an event. For me its for experimental art and controlled shoots, so I don't mind that limitation. I'm not sure of the record limit on the GH1, but if it's limited to memory card, that rocks.

No Articulating LCD - really painful, but I can work around it, and it just means less low/high angle shots. This is one of the features where the GH1 just completely smokes the 5D.

No Built-In ND Filters - same issue between the 2 cameras. I'm spoiled by my HVX. While shutter speed and ISO in photography can help control exposure, that's no good for video/film. So ND filters are a must. The opposite of light source control - light blockage control. Fortunately threaded filters are cheap, but not easy to swap on/off. A mattebox is expensive and bulky, but if it's time to get serious, that's the answer.

Auto Audio Gain - good for reference, home videos and stupid stuff. Other than that, I would be using a 2nd audio system if I needed audio capture when I'm shooting (often I don't). Regarding the GH1, I don't think there's been any report of the ability to turn auto gain on or off.

GH1 Problems and Solutions
Not Available yet - supposed to be available in Japan April 26th. BHphoto says June in the US.

I am skeptical of it's resolution - we haven't seen anything showcasing the resolution. We've seen some highly compressed, small scaled footage that ranges from lame trade show, to the pretty girls in the tropics. But we really haven't seen anything that comes close to the 5DMkII. We can only imagine it.

Data Rate not as high - this is a deal breaker for some people on the face of it, but if you're not mastering at 1080 or theatrical, it may not matter. I'm still satisfied with 720p mastering personally. At least there would be the crispness of 1080 res to begin with and use that size to scale/stabilize/crop, then master it down to 720p.

Transcode all footage - same issue as 5D.

Lenses - Can't use 35mm Nikon lenses without 2x crop factor - I'd have to say goodbye to some favorite lenses in the application I intended on. I would keep a few of my Nikons including my 105 micro nikkor even though it would be very telephoto now at 200mm but I guess it's time for hardcore microscopic macro footage. These are the lenses I have been eyeing for the GH1:

  • Panasonic Standard 25mm f/1.4 Leica D Summilux - about $800 USD. A must-have.

  • Panasonic Wide Zoom 7-14mm f4 - just announced. price not available yet. It's a bummer that it's not 2.8. I have not found a faster wide lens for 4/3rds. The Olympus is f4 as well but it's $1750! I hope the Panasonic is way less $$.

  • Sigma Zoom Super Wide Angle 18-50mm f/2.8 EX DC Macro - nice fast zoom for $370, but as a wide, it's only 36mm. But it's a nice go-anywhere useable range of 36mm-100mm with macro focusing ability.

  • Panasonic 45-200mm f/4-5.6 G Vario MEGA O.I.S. Lens for Micro Four Thirds SLR - this is about as much reach on a telephoto I'd ever need, but I'm only thinking of this lens for photography.

With all of the issues put aside and remedied, here's what it comes down to.

GH1 wins for it's size/weight, manual control, articulating LCD, potentially superior audio, 24p, auto focus, Intelligent exposure (I think that's available in video mode but not sure)

5DMkII wins for it's resolution, full frame sensor for DOF, no cropping on 35mm lenses, heavy duty build quality, CF cards more sturdy.

Hopefully hands-on reviews and sample footage from the GH1 come at latest end of April when it ships in Japan.

-steev
 
Nice writeup...but two additions/corrections:

1) The data rate issue isn't frame size dependent (other than the 2:3 pulldown losing 20% of the bandwidth); it is the quality of the recorded image. The high bandwidth is a big part of why the 5DM2 shines.

2) There are a variety of high quality low price 35mm rangefinder lenses that fit. The crop factor still holds though. Olympus has a variety of high quality 4/3rds lenses. However, most of those are zooms; there are few 4/3rds primes.

3) The 5DM2 scans one of three rows; the GH-1 scans two rows to one recorded. However, we KNOW the 5DM2 sensor records great stuff in all light. We know next to nothing about the GH-1 sensor; Panasonic still cameras have never been leaders in image quality, just solid players.
 
hepabst said:
There are so many options this days in a recording studio
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i happen to own a recording studio (i'm not a sound guy but my brother/partner is) and we run almost everything through a mixing table from circa 1975, mostly music recordings of course but also occasionally audio for film and tv. :-)

/matt
 
Ruzo,

I think John made a point. I can agree that sometimes some footage produce the same kind of outcome. It always seems the same.

Other ones, such as the D90 seem to have some additional cinematic magic.

But you can't go miles way further with higher resolution beyond your shooting format or sharper or cleaner (compression) to post (even with magic solutions ala Lee Wilson/Neat filter) when you don't have it natively during the acquisition process.

However, you can add the look you want with simple tools such as grade or filters even when you're shooting.

IMO, both (D90 and 5D MKII) are crippled but one more than the other.

Even without manual controls, the Canon certainly shines better. But it's not just point and shoot. I also like the D90. If it was not only 720p, it will even be fine for large distribution as far as indie production concerns. Even going to the big screen, 35mm or not.
 
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Emanuel said:
Ruzo,

I think John made a point. I can agree that sometimes some footage produce the same kind of outcome. It always seems the same.

Other ones, such as the D90 seem to have some additional cinematic magic.

But you can't go miles way further with higher resolution beyond your shooting format or sharper or cleaner (compression) to post (even with the magic solutions ala Lee Wilson/Neat filter) when you don't have it natively during the acquisition process.

However, you can add the look you want with simple tools such as grade or filters even when you're shooting.

IMO, both (D90 and 5D MKII) are crippled but one more than the other.

Even without manual controls, the Canon certainly shines better. But it's not just point and shoot. I also like the D90. If it was not only 720p, it will even be fine for large distribution as far as movies production concern.
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Totally agreeing with Emanuel. The D90 is crippled compression and manual control wise, the 5D MKii just manual controls and 24P.

I'm intersted, though, in why you're interested in VDSLRS Emanuel? I know you're a RED owner.

Being able to shoot RED at whim, I think I still look forward to VDSLRS strictly for shooting freedom. Just being able to back a camera into a corner and get this ultrawide shot of a bedroom makes me want to tinkle in my pants!!!

I can't do that with a RED, even when breaking it down to just the camera body/head and a lens. Which is a lovely shooting configuration, by the way.
 
mattsand said:
i happen to own a recording studio (i'm not a sound guy but my brother/partner is) and we run almost everything through a mixing table from circa 1975, mostly music recordings of course but also occasionally audio for film and tv. :-)

/matt
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Aaah! the smell of hot tubes! And warm bass! Much of todays Rock is created on old analog gear and then delivered on digital.
 
Kholi said:
Totally agreeing with Emanuel. The D90 is crippled compression and manual control wise, the 5D MKii just manual controls and 24P.

I'm intersted, though, in why you're interested in VDSLRS Emanuel? I know you're a RED owner.

Being able to shoot RED at whim, I think I still look forward to VDSLRS strictly for shooting freedom. Just being able to back a camera into a corner and get this ultrawide shot of a bedroom makes me want to tinkle in my pants!!!

I can't do that with a RED, even when breaking it down to just the camera body/head and a lens. Which is a lovely shooting configuration, by the way.
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Kholi,

Yes, freedom. And indie shooting style/production form factor. It is a 35x24mm sensor, by the way. Until Scarlet FF35 (the camera of cameras), we won't have another choice in any way other than the 4K RED ONE. Or unless to learn to deal with the 5D Mark II workarounds. Although 4x lower, resolution wise. Despite, more or less, just natively. Because otherwise, finishing in 2K gives you enough even for the big screen.

IMO, the 24p is not a big problem when we can get acceptable results with a good 30p->24p choice such as Twixtor or other frame interpolation and motion vectors tools. It works very well, actually.

Same for skew even without the same 'medicine'.

As said in another thread commenting an original David's comment, compression hits harder. But there isn't the same focus on it.

E. :-)
 
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