Panasonic abandoning P2?

Part of Panasonic's booth at NAB this year highlighting their cameras...

PanasonicCameras.jpg


The 4 units on the left (including the detachable-head camera) are AVCCAM. All the rest are P2.

AVCCAM:
2 handhelds, 1 shouldermount, 1 detachable head.
(Plus the 3D cam and the AF100, not pictured but due later this year)

P2:
2 handhelds, 6 shouldermount, 3 decks, 5 card readers.


P2 isn't going anywhere other than up. Remember, it's a professional format. The fact we get it in the 200 and the 170 is a blessing, but honestly a little out of place when you look what P2 is for.

- Mikko
 
Blackout said:
I say get rid of P2... I've always hated it.

You know that Kirk line in Star Trek VI "I've never trusted Kilingons, and I never will."

I feel that way about P2. I know all you buggards have 90 of them and are committed to the format like your wife.. you already have her and have to deal with her and love her and respect her but there is this so much better chic coming around the corner, and she's cheap, and fast!
Click to expand...

As I recall that film was about him learning to get over that mistrust and the fact that the old untrusting men were obsolete....
 
mikkowilson said:
Part of Panasonic's booth at NAB this year highlighting their cameras...

PanasonicCameras.jpg


The 4 units on the left (including the detachable-head camera) are AVCCAM. All the rest are P2.

AVCCAM:
2 handhelds, 1 shouldermount, 1 detachable head.
(Plus the 3D cam and the AF100, not pictured but due later this year)

P2:
2 handhelds, 6 shouldermount, 3 decks, 5 card readers.


P2 isn't going anywhere other than up. Remember, it's a professional format. The fact we get it in the 200 and the 170 is a blessing, but honestly a little out of place when you look what P2 is for.

- Mikko
Click to expand...

Again, the main point of confusion is that the $21,000 3D camera is going to be using AVC....very strange. But, Jan mentioned they will be doing a P2 version, so we'll see. I don't think P2 is going anywhere but still...very weird.
 
I think that you just have to keep in mind that trying to hit a price point and a physical size was mission critical to this 3D project. There are plans to bring out a P2 version, not sure of the time frame but in general it will be a little larger and more expensive. But this thread is about whether P2 is going away. Not likely, we now have 140,000 of them in the field. I think it is here to stay.

Best,

Jan
 
I think there is no question about P2 being here to stay. I just wonder if there will be another sub6K p2 cam like the HPX170.
 
As long as broadcasters have need for a handheld unit, you can bet that there will be handheld units available.

Remember the announcement where NBC committed to the HPX300; they also bought HPX170s to go with 'em.
 
I hope P2 doesn't go anywhere. I'm planning to buy the AF-100 and the HPG-20 so I can have the flexibility of going from AVCCAM to AVC Intra.
 
After several months I've shot with P2 cards again. Week long location project including some traveling, many long interviews and very low budget, so I thought that the small and trustful HVX would be a good fit.
My problems started when I realized that since I updated my OS to Snow Leopard my Duel Adaptor would not work on my MBP. After checking my options I decided to borrow an old Power Book G4 with PCMI slot and use it to transfer my footage.
It turned out to be very inconvenient not having my main laptop on the road, I didn't have enough space on my luggage to bring 2 computers. The old Power Book have several bugs, a dead battery and no FCP. The P2CMS (which I downloaded) for some reason doesn't play the video but I could hear the audio on the clips.
The new Panasonic adaptor cost $350 (which seems a lot for a simple adaptor) and was not a reasonable investment since I'm not shooting P2 a lot these days.
At the end, maybe due to my extensive previous experience with P2 workflow, everything worked fine. Not without a few scary moments.

Anyway, I was surprised how more "complicated" was to manage P2 data. Im my opinion it's easier to manage RED footage or CF cards coming out of 5Ds or similar cameras, and these have been my bread and butter lately. It seems like a more natural workflow and better integrated with newer gear and budgets.
 
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Alexdias,

There are lots of ways to wrangle P2 without a lot of hassle. You just don't have any of them. If you borrow a dated laptop with a dead battery to download, P2 workflow may not be for you. Seems like these are your issues, not P2 workflow problems.

If I field download, I use a rugged spec HDD and plug it into my edit CPU later. Baddabing, no problem, no laptop in the field, pretty fast transfer.

Grant
 
Yes I admit I wasn't "that" prepared. The very short Pre Production time and micro budget limited my options, but the point of my post was to show how "dated" the support is. There're no "P2 readers" widely available for lower price, not as a laptop nor as adaptors. If we compare this technology with CF cards, both on price and practicality, we'll notice the difference with a substantial advantage to CF cards.
I think P2 cards went a long way popularizing tapeless acquisition, and they are cheaper than they used to be, but there're much better options nowadays.
 
The beauty of P2 is how seamlessly it works across codecs as they change. Who knows what the future might hold for P2? I've got my ideas.
 
If P2 isn't for you, then . . . it isn't for you. Not sure how that equates to a general problem with P2.

I, personally, like what the Panasonic cameras give me in terms of footage, which I find more important than any workflow concerns. (But then, I don't really have those, either.)

Panasonic 24p mojo + AVC-Intra 100 = darn close to Nirvana.
 
alexdias,

"but the point of my post was to show how "dated" the support is."

How about Panna support like a FIVE YEAR WARRANTY on my new P2 HPX. The only thing not up to snuff about Panna support is the kludgy website. Though if you look around, everything is there, but the translations are pretty silly. I admit Panna was slow to release the single card reader. But if you look at their professional product lineup, it has something for everyone with lots of good cam choices using Intra and DVCPro-HD with P2 being the binder.

Does Sony offer anything like the P2 system with their combination of different recording media (SS + disc) and multiples of codecs? Sony still has much of their low end pro products running on HDV. Who else really competes with Panna with a complete and cohesive product lineup? Red, JVC, Canon?

I have nothing against recording to CF but Canon is the only maker going there thus far. And I hope they succeed as their new cam has promise for what I do. Would I welcome a Canon version of the AF100, YES! But Canon has a long ways to go to approach the product lineup and reputation that Panna has. Canon doesn't have any high end cameras at all.

When you discuss "dated support", who are you suggesting has better? Not trying to be harsh here, but if you say P2 is dated and CF is better, what products are presently doing so in the market?

Grant
 
New Direction said:
With the low cost "E" series cards I doubt P2 will be going anywhere. The main problem, and that is indeed a problem of the past, was that P2 cards were quite expensive.

I see Panasonic sticking with P2, but I might just be too hopeful for my own good.
Click to expand...

In my field of work ( run and gun investigative journalism) I have to shut down the camera, give the tape/ P2/ CF/ SDHC medium to the producer who runs off to the edit room and thats it.
If I was to do all my work on P2 I would have to buy some 16 or 20 cards because I have to hassle these guys to return my cards for days/weeks!
I love P2 ! but the price is still too high to make them a real media standard.
If P2 cards came down in price it would surely help.
Until then its mini DV-digibeta tape and they prefer it. Now they want Dual Layer Professional Disc PFD50DLA :(
400$ for a 16 GB E series card? Even @ 200 it would still be too much IMO.

I do give credit for the P2 5 year warranty! I had my HVX twice in repair and both times the support was world class!

btw: SDHC cards have write protection ;-)
 
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I have to disagree with some of what you stated timbook2.

To me it's the equivalent saying, I love Porsche automobiles, but they are too expensive to be a real automobile standard.
 
Grant,

Maybe it was just my recent experience. For the last 6 months or so I've been shooting with the DSLRs and RED cameras and as you know they both use CF cards.
I also shot some studio footage with a EX-3 (not my favorite bird) coupled with a Convergent Design NanoFlash with excellent results.
So, CF or SDCH cards seemed quite practical lately.

David,

I'm a big fan of the Panasonic 24p Mojo too. Big time.
As soon as Panasonic have available affordable new 1080 cameras to test I'll be "shouldering" my way on the front row.
 
timbook2 said:
In my field of work ( run and gun investigative journalism) I have to shut down the camera, give the tape/ P2/ CF/ SDHC medium to the producer who runs off to the edit room and thats it.
If I was to do all my work on P2 I would have to buy some 16 or 20 cards because I have to hassle these guys to return my cards for days/weeks!
I love P2 ! but the price is still too high to make them a real media standard.
If P2 cards came down in price it would surely help.
Until then its mini DV-digibeta tape and they prefer it. Now they want Dual Layer Professional Disc PFD50DLA :(
400$ for a 16 GB E series card? Even @ 200 it would still be too much IMO.

I do give credit for the P2 5 year warranty! I had my HVX twice in repair and both times the support was world class!

btw: SDHC cards have write protection ;-)
Click to expand...

I hear you, but one of the reasons networks prefer tape and dual layer discs is it gives them a hard copy original outright.

If you had another p2 card, you could shoot to that while your assistant was downloading it.

I'm also confused as to why you are giving your cards out. Why don't you just dump the cards to a hard drive? It only takes about 20 min. if that. Instead of waiting weeks to get your cards back
 
I'll offer a rental house perspective on this, and this is from a large rental house, not my company--RED and Canon 5D are very popular and are by far the most unreliable, problematic cameras they rent out, requiring a huge amount of hand holding and post-consultation.

My opinion, Panasonic P2 cameras are a walk in the park--bullet proof, ultra reliable, mature and fully fleshed out with accessories and work flow. Scalable codec wise with throughput to make P2 viable for 4:4:4 color space and 3D applications in the near future.

I am not interested in using media that can't be write protected and is easily lost physically and data wise(I've seen it happen on set).

My clients demand good quality, but also total reliability. That makes P2 a no brainer, in addition to the lovely images the Panasonic cameras deliver without any drama on a daily basis.
 
Jeff,

You made some powerful points there. For years I have worked with P2 and never had issues as far as reliability goes. There have been some problems but always cased by user mishandling.

Working with DSLRs have been a challenge, but as a DP for hire I can't always choose my weapons. And in the end I recognize the impressive quality of final results, justifying the hassle.
As far as RED cameras goes it really depends on the knowledge of their (very) "particular" workflow. In both cases I agree with the substantial amount of consultation and adaptation and I often find myself in murky waters. Again, the end results are worth the stress.

Right now (August 2010) these options seemed to be the "way to go" for low budget indie and commercial productions. The costs are feasible and seasoned producers are embracing the risks and betting on the results.

It seems to me that around 2 years ago Panasonic lost its track of leadership on this particular market and although their cameras are still one of the best around they are lagging in innovation.
This year I've seen countless productions using RED and DSLRs and just a few of other cameras. Very impressive.

I sincerely hope that Panasonic quickly rebounds with competitive cost larger chip (AVC-Intra) cameras.

My 2 cents.
 
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