Ben_B
Veteran
Yeah which in turn begs the question why they're doing a $21,000 camera with SD instead of P2. Even if they "can" do it that doesn't answer the question of "why."
Panasonic abandoning P2?
- Thread starter Ben_B
- Start date
Yeah which in turn begs the question why they're doing a $21,000 camera with SD instead of P2. Even if they "can" do it that doesn't answer the question of "why."
It seems that Barry Green and you have unconventional definition of media. This is fine as long as you keep explaining that in your universe media is not what stuff is recorded to, but something where stuff is recorded to and stored for long term or distributed. Of course, you could simply accept a more common definition, like "the physical object on which data is stored, as opposed to the device used to read and write it", but this would destroy the P2 shrine.
Barry had some radical ideas in 2005, like: "Sometimes I wish Panasonic never even introduced the idea of buying more cards." Have he changed his mind since then? I am not sure that the concept of juggling one or two cards using them as film magazines is appreciated well by those who shoot 20 cards a day 7 days a week, or by those who leave civilized world for weeks or months to shoot in the remote parts of the planet. Please allow me to mention my current favorite show, No Reservations. They shoot 70-100 tapes (that is, hours) per episode. They could not do this with only two P2 cards per camera.
The concept of using P2 cards merely as a "buffer" and offloading them right away after (or during) the shoot seems to be opposite to the concept of editing right off a card, but maybe I am not understanding something again and I had to ask first.
A built-in -- even better, a removable -- 500 GB HDD would be a better candidate for "extension of the camera" title. JVC pioneered this concept long ago in Everio consumer lineup, and Canon, Sony and yes, Panasonic followed. Reserving a tiny slot for an ATA drive in a relatively large professional camcorder would be a rather simple task, but this has not happened. Why? One might think it is because "cheap" E-type P2 cards cost $350-400 per 16 GB card, while a 500 GB HDD costs $100 or less. No, in fact this did not happen because Panasonic cares about its customers more than of anything, and cannot allow using anything less than waterproof, pressureproof and bulletproof P2 solution.
I expect Panasonic to come up with SDHC/SDXC-to-PCMCIA adapter, similar to Sony's MS adapter. This will allow reusing existing P2 infrastructure and will provide a choice between expensive and robust on the one side, and cheap and not so reliable on the other side.
P.S. I have no idea why jumped on the soapbox again. I don't even have a P2 camera.
I'm going with the definition of what P2 is as detailed by its creator. If you're going to be evaluating whether or not P2 lives up to its "promise," then what exactly it was promised to be is germane, no?
Panasonic indeed tries to be very careful with calling P2 "media". Still, there are some slips of the tongue, like:
Seriously, if it walks, quacks, and looks like a duck...
...it must be a duck.
Barry_Green
Moderator
Is it unconventional? P2 is unlike anything else -- it isn't a commodity. It's not "dumb storage." It's a microcomputer with a raid controller and attached memory storage.
"Media" is a cheap dumb storage device, like a tape. P2 isn't like that.
A rather loaded statement. What "shrine"? Why does there need to even be phrasing like that used?
Why is that radical? If you have two 64GB cards, shooting AVCI-50 720/24pN, you can shoot literally 11 hours uninterrupted. Are you actually going to argue that someone needs the ability to shoot more than 11 hours, given that the standard production day is 10 hours?
I got through the first three years of P2 on two 4gb cards. I since then went to a 16 and an 8, and haven't found any job I couldn't do.
Okay, first of all, who would do that? And secondly, use bigger cards. Two 64's would get you through most any shoot day, with maybe one offload. Third, if you're seriously shooting "20 cards a day" then P2 is perhaps the wrong product for that type of shoot, as I've been saying for years. There are certain scenarios (like "Survivor") where the idea of an XDCAM disc actually makes more sense.
Use the right product for the job.
Um, then don't?
In 2005, we had 4GB cards. A lucky few had 8GB cards. Nowadays anyone can have 64GB cards for LESS than we used to pay for 4GB cards. It's a whole different world now.
Because no professional wants to shoot their footage onto a hard disk.
Do you think Panasonic somehow "forces" their customers to buy these cards instead of hard disks? Or, perhaps, could you expand your mind to encompass the concept that their customers DON'T WANT to trust their footage to hard disks!
Panasonic can build whatever they want, but the customer doesn't have to buy it. That's a lesson Sony's had to learn hard -- just because they make it, that doesn't mean anyone will buy it. The fact that Panasonic's scored 80+% of the worldwide broadcast market should explain that maybe, perhaps, the customer actually LIKES the product.
And, I might submit, you don't really understand the mindset of the P2 customer. P2 customers are quite happy with what they've got. There's a reason it took over its target market. And no, consumers and hobbyists and cost-conscious folks are not and never were its target market. For them, there's AVCCAM.
I have no idea who wrote that FAQ. I do know what the heads of the P2 line have maintained from the beginning, which is where the "promises" of P2 were made.
It's all smoke and mirrors anyway, because it's not like you'd generally make a habit of editing from SD cards, either. At least not any more than you would from P2 cards.
So, whatever you're on about, you should probably see if it actually bears out in the world of people who use the product daily, rather than just arguing ad Internetum.
As I was reading the last three posts, I realized that I set my beer down on top of a 16GB P2 card that had been riding around in this laptop for the past week. Lucky for me, the beer wasn't sweating and I'd put the card into its protective case, complete with rubber boot.
For me, P2 has more than earned the right to be the first choice in media for our work. We've had these cameras in conditions ranging from minus-zero snowstorms in the midwest to Central America's tropical jungles where humidity shut down our tape-based F900s for an hour. P2 cameras just keeps rolling with it, and I think Panasonic will continue to advance and promote the media accordingly.
For me, P2 has more than earned the right to be the first choice in media for our work. We've had these cameras in conditions ranging from minus-zero snowstorms in the midwest to Central America's tropical jungles where humidity shut down our tape-based F900s for an hour. P2 cameras just keeps rolling with it, and I think Panasonic will continue to advance and promote the media accordingly.
wgzn
Veteran
i dont think much anything about this camera means anything to anyone except maybe budget features and game developers.
and if it does mean the end of P2 then there will be something else. and we will buy it or we will buy something else, or continue using what we have... until some REAL acquisition paradigm shift presents itself.
seems like a buncha wondering for the sake of wondering.
and if it does mean the end of P2 then there will be something else. and we will buy it or we will buy something else, or continue using what we have... until some REAL acquisition paradigm shift presents itself.
seems like a buncha wondering for the sake of wondering.
I think Panasonic is removing P2 from their Prosumer cameras. I'm not sure we'll see another camera like the HVX200 or HPX170.
In my opinion, the Prosumer P2 cameras (HVX200, HPX170) are kind of in an odd place in the market. They are still too expensive for consumers but not really "pro" enough for professional HD work going forward.
I think Panasonic's future cameras will be HPX300 style cameras and up that are P2 / AVC-Intra, and HMC150 cameras and down that are SDHC / H.264.
As expensive as the 3DA1 is, it is still aimed at the Prosumer / early-adopter marketplace. It is expensive, because it is new technology. I don't think it's really being aimed professionals, who would demand shoulder-mounts, switchable lens', etc, etc.
I don't know if I agree with this. As Discovery, their subsidiary networks and others have relaxed their rules on acceptable cameras (and underlying long-GOP formats) for acquisition, more and more of the 1/3 imager type devices like the Z7U have become common on unscripted sets everywhere.
Certainly, many reality shows still lens with HDX900s, VariCam, Sony PDW700s and even F900s, but the mandate for HDCam and DVCProHD tape is diminishing. As the smaller cameras continue to offer more powerful recording codecs, I think the shoulder-mount market will continue to contract in unscripted (reality) television. That's a big market and I'd wager manufacturers watch it very closely.
DC
Cinematographiliac
Ditto! I shot in Kenya with multiple P2 cards and a couple of HVX200's in May 2008. Everything held up perfectly!
Considering the success of the HPX and HVX, I doubt Panny would screw the golden goose. Think of how many small producers use this equipment. And when they rent a big cam, they have the same workflow. How many larger producers have a HPX-HVX around for B-Roll. When they have a big Pannycam and need a hand held rig, they have the same workflow. It just wouldn't make sense unless they were to abandon P2 altogether for the next big thing.
Grant
Grant
PerroneFord
Deals in Lead
SD cards... and everything was lost. Like Teddy on the River of Doom.
To me, the bigger question for these new cameras is "why not P2"? I would pay another $1000 to have the AF100 as a P2 2-slot camera.
E-Series helped make P2 cards highly affordable. There are many cards in owner-operator hands. SDXC will certainly be less expensive. Ultimately, I don't know how important that higher first-cost on raw media will be to owner-ops on a $6k ~ $10k total package? To me, the P2 cards are long-since paid for and the cost just keeps sliding for new ones.
The rental market is flooded with cards. In most markets, P2 can be rented for larger shoots.
The industry has accepted the P2 cards as a stable and reliable media for acquisition and even editing.
One vote for P2 on the AF100.
E-Series helped make P2 cards highly affordable. There are many cards in owner-operator hands. SDXC will certainly be less expensive. Ultimately, I don't know how important that higher first-cost on raw media will be to owner-ops on a $6k ~ $10k total package? To me, the P2 cards are long-since paid for and the cost just keeps sliding for new ones.
The rental market is flooded with cards. In most markets, P2 can be rented for larger shoots.
The industry has accepted the P2 cards as a stable and reliable media for acquisition and even editing.
One vote for P2 on the AF100.
New Direction
Active member
With the low cost "E" series cards I doubt P2 will be going anywhere. The main problem, and that is indeed a problem of the past, was that P2 cards were quite expensive.
I see Panasonic sticking with P2, but I might just be too hopeful for my own good.
I see Panasonic sticking with P2, but I might just be too hopeful for my own good.