Panasonic 4k camera system info & updates
- Thread starter PappasArts
- Start date
Samuel H
Major Contributor
Didn't intend to hijack the thread, just point that how you measure DR will lead to very different numbers, so comparisons are what I'd like to hear about.
In any case, here's how I measured usable DR for that table.
thedarkhorse
Member
Well I finally got the call from vistek today, no special price for my early preorder, they had to bump the price to 1899. I was told to expect shipment the first week of may.
PappasArts
Veteran
Rumor is Panasonic will introduce a new Micro Four Thirds hybrid photo/video camera at the 2015 NAB show
• 4K video
• 18MP photo
• 16+ stops of dynamic range
• Improved lowlight capabilities
• Improved skintones
• Improved highlight rendition
• Useable ISO (almost no grain) up to 12,800
• The new camera will basically have one of the best stills and videos images/color rendition/dynamic range compared to the competition
• Price tag is expected to be high - similar to the AF101: around $3k-$4k
I wonder if this is the new sensor that Panasonic and Fuji jointly have been working on that will be in this camera system...?
Though it's a short list of rumored specs, if so this will be a nice addition to all the other 4k systems out there.
Looking forward to seeing the upcoming V-log for the GH4 too.
MIKOS
https://Twitter.com/PappasArts
http://www.MikosArts.com
.
• 4K video
• 18MP photo
• 16+ stops of dynamic range
• Improved lowlight capabilities
• Improved skintones
• Improved highlight rendition
• Useable ISO (almost no grain) up to 12,800
• The new camera will basically have one of the best stills and videos images/color rendition/dynamic range compared to the competition
• Price tag is expected to be high - similar to the AF101: around $3k-$4k
I wonder if this is the new sensor that Panasonic and Fuji jointly have been working on that will be in this camera system...?
Though it's a short list of rumored specs, if so this will be a nice addition to all the other 4k systems out there.
Looking forward to seeing the upcoming V-log for the GH4 too.
MIKOS
https://Twitter.com/PappasArts
http://www.MikosArts.com
.
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Fuji said recently that the organic sensor is quite far from being market ready.
This might be a BSI enabled sensor, with the quoted dynamic range for the photo multiple exposure HDR. If, however, BSI helps the GH4 sensor gain a couple of stops to 13'ish - or probably, more like 12'ish - then it'd make for a pretty nice $4,000 cam that can be used for both the run-n-gun and the narrative.
One has to eliminate the blur in between the frames during any, even minute, motion. And so you need a high powered processor working with a specially designed software. (Arri did it with Alexa ... but for $60+ grand). So, with the above variables, the question is how much power each camera packs in order to do HDR at various resolutions and frame rates. Off only WX-970 promotional footage, it's hard to tell either way. The idea from model to model is likely to be the same but the execution will vary.
FWIW, I recently read an interview with Olympus on its pixel-shifting EM-5 MK II, where one of the managers said that their next generation EM-5 (presumably MK III) will enable this pixel-shifting photography hand held. At this point, it needs to be on a stable platform shooting stationary objects. You can shoot landscapes or interiors with it but not pets or humans. Our friendly Camera Store dudes shot a cloud of steam coming out of air ducts on a cold Calgary, Alberta day with that camera and, the cumulative five-shot 40 MPX version had a differently shaped cloud than a simple 16 MPX single frame. In other words, there was that computational lag resulting in a blur because Olympus could stuff only so much processing power into EM-5 MK II.
AF-200 (code name) will obviously have more of everything compared to a $1,000 camera but how close they can come to Alexa's HDR feature is, at this point, a guess. Regardless, the quoted specs will always be more impressive for the photo portion of any hybrid.
Then again, if they can manage, let's say, 14 stops at 4K 24p, the camera will fly off the shelves.
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16+ stops of DR is hard to fathom. That would be superior to the Alexa and even 35mm film.
Not necessarily. All other things being equal, 16 stops are better than 14 stops. But CMOSIS claims up to 15 stops in HDR mode for the CMV12000, which has a 10-stop native dynamic range. The CMV12000 actually has three HDR modes, each of which has image artifacts. So even though the dynamic range on this rumored camera may be measurable to 16 stops, there may very well be significant compromises, and it's fairly certain its image quality won't be on par with that of Panasonic's $55K flagship camera.
Firstly, this is mathematically impossible. Processing can't add detail where none exists.
Secondly, this is not necessary or desirable. Cinematographers deliberately choose low shutter speeds (eg 180 degree shutter) that create motion blur. Motion blur in the frames is a highly desirable aesthetic.
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I don't think they're adding details, rather than separating X from Y.
I was under the impression that Alexa read every 5th through 7th frame - floating? - and then interpolated the results for a higher dynamic range?
Are you saying that it's basically shooting at 48 FPS but it is actually a simultaneous double recording at two different ISO's, with the subsequent merging of the dual exposures into a single file?
Hypothetically then, if the above is the case, all one'd need is a 48 FPS capable camera (more or less) to up the native sensor dynamic range at 24P by a couple of stops and a $4,000 AF-200 should be capable of doing roughly the same thing. URSA is up to 80 FPS now but without the dual exposure.
Or is this the trick that more than one manufacturer uses? If you look at DxO, then their sensor ratings are for a single shot and GH4, if we take it as a point of departure, is rated at 12.7 EVS (yes, I know, it's still subjective) in a photo mode Raw. Can more stops be realized without a sensor redesign by the addition of BSI or improved lithography?
From the "ALEXA's Sensor" page on the Arri site:
Although the science behind the breakthrough performance of ALEXA’s custom designed CMOS sensor is complex, the use of large pixels and a Dual Gain Architecture (DGA) are its two main principles.
By employing unusually large pixels (in today’s world of tiny cell phone sensors), ALEXA’s sensor exhibits high sensitivity,
wide exposure latitude and low crosstalk. The larger a pixel is, the more light it can capture and the lower the noise.
DGA simultaneously provides two separate read-out paths from each pixel with different amplification. The first path contains the regular, highly amplified signal. The second path contains a signal with lower amplification, to capture the information that is clipped in the first path. Both paths feed into the camera’s A/D converters, delivering a 14 bit image for each path. These images are then combined into a single 16 bit high dynamic range image. This method enhances low light performance and prevents the highlights from being clipped, thereby significantly extending the dynamic range of the image.
ALEXA’s sensor design provides 32 pairs of outputs. Each channel is divided into a high amplification (gain) path (H) and a low gain path (L), resulting in 64 channels arriving at the 14 bit A/D converters.
In the final images, the shadow areas are re-constructed from the high gain path and the highlights are reconstructed from the low gain path for an image containing meaningful luminance information in all 16 bits.
By employing unusually large pixels (in today’s world of tiny cell phone sensors), ALEXA’s sensor exhibits high sensitivity,
wide exposure latitude and low crosstalk. The larger a pixel is, the more light it can capture and the lower the noise.
DGA simultaneously provides two separate read-out paths from each pixel with different amplification. The first path contains the regular, highly amplified signal. The second path contains a signal with lower amplification, to capture the information that is clipped in the first path. Both paths feed into the camera’s A/D converters, delivering a 14 bit image for each path. These images are then combined into a single 16 bit high dynamic range image. This method enhances low light performance and prevents the highlights from being clipped, thereby significantly extending the dynamic range of the image.
ALEXA’s sensor design provides 32 pairs of outputs. Each channel is divided into a high amplification (gain) path (H) and a low gain path (L), resulting in 64 channels arriving at the 14 bit A/D converters.
In the final images, the shadow areas are re-constructed from the high gain path and the highlights are reconstructed from the low gain path for an image containing meaningful luminance information in all 16 bits.
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Illya Friedman
Well-known member
A lot of people repeat rumor site rumors, and shouldn't. 99.9% is total b.s., as is this claim.
re: Alexa
"In the final images, the shadow areas are re-constructed from the high gain path and the highlights are reconstructed from the low gain path for an image containing meaningful luminance information in all 16 bits."
Must be some interesting err.."black magic" involved at that point
A virtual "lumenist" making those decisions.
"In the final images, the shadow areas are re-constructed from the high gain path and the highlights are reconstructed from the low gain path for an image containing meaningful luminance information in all 16 bits."
Must be some interesting err.."black magic" involved at that point
A virtual "lumenist" making those decisions.re: Alexa
"In the final images, the shadow areas are re-constructed from the high gain path and the highlights are reconstructed from the low gain path for an image containing meaningful luminance information in all 16 bits."
Must be some interesting err.."black magic" involved at that point
Nice one. Puns aside, this is also how the BMCC's sensor works, although it constructs its 16-bit image from two 11-bit readouts, as opposed to the Alexa's dual 14-bit ones.
I am no engineer but it surely looks like a 48 FPS camera could make for a 24 FPS HDR image by simply having a faster sensor read speed and then applying a twin ISO spread in signal processing. Alexa seems slightly different in concept but I'd think it's doable in a $4,000 camera these days.
How do these $1,000 consumer cameras do it?
How do these $1,000 consumer cameras do it?