P2 Shenanigans

No idea when. As far as I know they haven't even talked about such a product. But it's obvious that they're going to do it -- why on earth wouldn't they? They did with the SDX/SPX, and they're pushing P2 heavily, so I would feel confident in saying that we'll at least see such a product announced soon. Might be a ways away before delivering it though.

This is all speculation, I'm not offering any *insider info* because I don't have any. But it seems obvious.
 
You know who I am pissed off about and who I think are money hungry blood suckers? The HDV consortium! Instead of taking the time and money to think about how they could get the best quality HD to the consumer for the best price, they develped an the least acceptable quality HD that would fit onto a mini-dv tape. Why? Because that means that the memebers did not have to spend a single cent on redesign, engineering and manufacturing of new tape drives or a new media infrastructure. They could just use their already paid for mini-dv infrastructure.

The question should be why is Sony and JVC charging so much for their cameras?

Panasonic has a solution that is the best quaity for the price.
 
Just a thought to everyone who thinks that direct to disk recording is the way to go and that it is better than the P2s. Yes, I think that D2D would be great and I hope it is an option that is available soon. However, I have had cameras fail because of heat and humidity (an XL-1, did it to me twice, it is now a doorstop) and last year got caught in a snow storm out in the woods and had to use a garbage bag as a weather cover.

I would not think that HDD (currently) would hold up harsh environmental conditions. The P2 cards will work in conditions that I would not even think of venturing into. I will be glad to use them.
 
Rosestar said:
You know who I am pissed off about and who I think are money hungry blood suckers? The HDV consortium! Instead of taking the time and money to think about how they could get the best quality HD to the consumer for the best price, they develped an the least acceptable quality HD that would fit onto a mini-dv tape. Why? Because that means that the memebers did not have to spend a single cent on redesign, engineering and manufacturing of new tape drives or a new media infrastructure. They could just use their already paid for mini-dv infrastructure.
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In cohoots with Masons and Rothchilds

why get angry, just don't buy one.


To me, I don't understand, why everyone is going so crazy about have to shooting HD, I understand the increased resolution, but the technology has made little market penetration. There is currently no delivery medium, hd-dvd/blue-ray are still debating. In a couple of years, yes, but now? Where are people going to show? if I get a dvx200 it will used used as a dv camera wide screen, its priced similar to the xl2

did you post this also on dv.com too?
 
Don't you think the HDV consortium is probably geared more towards the consumer line? Most people are not going to care or even notice if it's HD or HDV! Most people when high def starts hitting best buy will take them to disney world and be happy with tape. When P2 cards hit about $50 or less, then most people will want them.

Digital still camera's are bomming because it's easy and cheap. No big deal downloading to your PC. How long for easy high def from camera to computer to TV? For most people it's going to be awhile.

If the HDV consortium can speed things up would that help people who want to produce HD programs?
 
ettubaby said:
To me, I don't understand, why everyone is going so crazy about have to shooting HD, I understand the increased resolution, but the technology has made little market penetration. There is currently no delivery medium, hd-dvd/blue-ray are still debating. In a couple of years, yes, but now? Where are people going to show? if I get a dvx200 it will used used as a dv camera wide screen, its priced similar to the xl2
Click to expand...

I think HD in the homes will be sooner than we think. When companies like Apple put Blue-ray burners in their computers I think it's going to snowball. I think the switchover will be faster than people switching to DVD from VHS. Look at the price of HDTV's plumeting. Film festivals will be all over projecting HD content. The point is, if you shoot HD now, you can always downres to SD. At least you will have a master that can be shown as HD when everyone caches up.

check out this story about how HD-DVD movies may be available this year.

http://www.pcworld.com/news/article/0,aid,119204,pg,1,RSS,RSS,00.asp
 
With prices "under $1,000" it won't catch on to fast. Under $300 will be more like it. That might take a couple of years. I wonder what a HD DVD will cost? $25 or more?
 
bgundu said:
I think HD in the homes will be sooner than we think. When companies like Apple put Blue-ray burners in their computers I think it's going to snowball. I think the switchover will be faster than people switching to DVD from VHS. Look at the price of HDTV's plumeting. Film festivals will be all over projecting HD content. The point is, if you shoot HD now, you can always downres to SD. At least you will have a master that can be shown as HD when everyone caches up.

check out this story about how HD-DVD movies may be available this year.

http://www.pcworld.com/news/article/0,aid,119204,pg,1,RSS,RSS,00.asp
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sundance expects VHS, yeah VHS or DVD, plus what you shoot in is not going to win you any awards. I say, keep it cheap.


I think it's telling that you mention Apple's blue-ray snowball and end which movies in hd-dvd, there's a problem there, they are not compatible. Things need to hashed out.
 
ettubaby said:
sundance expects VHS, yeah VHS or DVD, plus what you shoot in is not going to win you any awards. I say, keep it cheap.


I think it's telling that you mention Apple's blue-ray snowball and end which movies in hd-dvd, there's a problem there, they are not compatible. Things need to hashed out.
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They do and for good or bad the HDV Consortium has a good chance of winning. If they do can the HD side make there stuff work with HDV? What happens if you buy a Panasonic HD and all the players come out HDV? Will the stuff recorded in HD work on a HVD player? I guess they won't so where does that leave HD?

It makes you not want to jump to anything to fast.
 
ettubaby said:
sundance expects VHS, yeah VHS or DVD, plus what you shoot in is not going to win you any awards. I say, keep it cheap.
QUOTE]

This is only what they require for submission, what they show during the festival is either HD or 35mm. If it was not shot or made in these formats it is upconverted to one of these formats.

VHS origination would look pretty awful upconverted to HD.

Best,

Jan
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Jan_Crittenden said:
ettubaby said:
sundance expects VHS, yeah VHS or DVD, plus what you shoot in is not going to win you any awards. I say, keep it cheap.
QUOTE]

This is only what they require for submission, what they show during the festival is either HD or 35mm. If it was not shot or made in these formats it is upconverted to one of these formats.

VHS origination would look pretty awful upconverted to HD.

Best,

Jan
Click to expand...

Yeah, you would imagine something like this, most of theaters are 300+ seat rooms. But still I know several prominent festivals that still have VHS as the preferred format!
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ettubaby said:
DVD vs Tape is a point of preference. My issue which DVD is the single point of failure that they have, but if you're careful, it will probably be ok. In terms of tape life, if stored in the right conditions, not played repeatably it will last ever, the government agencies do this. Some of original German tape recording from the early 40's are still in excellent playing condition. I guess its all in the care.
Click to expand...

Tape is *not* a lifetime storage medium, by any means (unless maybe you're talking about the lifetime of someone who's already pretty far along in years). Preservation of digital media (and analog media as well) is a huge issue that libraries and archives are dealing with. For just a glimpse into the issue, take a look at the National Digital Information Infrastructure and Preservation Program (led by the Library of Congress) -- http://www.digitalpreservation.gov/

Kevin
 
ettubaby said:
To me, I don't understand, why everyone is going so crazy about have to shooting HD, I understand the increased resolution, but the technology has made little market penetration. There is currently no delivery medium, hd-dvd/blue-ray are still debating. In a couple of years, yes, but now?
Click to expand...
As far as the consumer, I have to agree. The professional production industry is far more interested in HD than the consumer is.

As an example: Voom. Voom was an all-HD satellite programming service, like Dish or DirecTV. DirecTV is one of the biggest success stories in consumer electronic services, one of the most rapidly adopted. Voom offered the same thing, but exclusively in HD.

Voom just shut its doors. Massive losses, few subscribers.

HD is becoming more important to the production industry, that's for sure. Producers who produce content are definitely looking at HD more seriously now. But the consumers still don't care. If there is mass adoption by the consumer, it will likely be through back-door means -- by that, I mean, they'll get HD, but not because they set out to get it. They'll buy a PS3, which just so happens to have a blu-ray player on it. They'll buy a flat-screen plasma, and oh -- guess what -- it's also HD.

The thing that can help drive HD adoption into consumer homes is sports. If there's to be a demand for HD programming, I think that's where it'll come from.
 
Bummer.. Voom was hanging on until the last minute last time I saw them in the news a couple weeks ago. Apparently the CEO exercised his authority to remove something like 2/3 of the board of directors since they were being pressured to shut down. So, he just got rid of them. What a moron. It really is too bad there is no Voom any more.. That's just too bad for all 34,000 subscribers who spent nearly a thousand bucks on a dish...... But, I suppose you just can't operate a satalite TV service with only 34,000 subscribers! Oh well. Another one bites the dust....
 
I think it was the content or lack of that doomed Voom. The people producing HD content for the specialized HD channels are basically creating crap, but on HD. A sky, an ocean, fish, and trees look great in HD, but give me the Discovery channel or Animal Planet. I know its SD but the content is at least interesting. Listen to the Jody Eldrod interview about how the size of the Sony HDV cam enabled them to shoot things never before shot on HD, like from a skydivers helmet. Yeah thats cool and all but how many things that people have seen many times before are now going to be shot on HD so they can create content thats basically stuff we've seen before, but on HD. Don't get me wrong, I wished Voom would have made it, but to have all HD content is nearly impossible, unless you produce or buy it .
 
Good point. HDnet will pay a flat rate of $1,000.00 for 30minutes of programming. It's the same offer for everyone--which is why there isn't an incredible array of mind-blowing content on HDnet.
 
ettubaby said:
In cohoots with Masons and Rothchilds

why get angry, just don't buy one.


To me, I don't understand, why everyone is going so crazy about have to shooting HD, I understand the increased resolution, but the technology has made little market penetration. There is currently no delivery medium, hd-dvd/blue-ray are still debating. In a couple of years, yes, but now? Where are people going to show? if I get a dvx200 it will used used as a dv camera wide screen, its priced similar to the xl2

did you post this also on dv.com too?
Click to expand...

I don't believe in vast conspiracies, I just know how corporate types think. ROI rules everthing, period.

For me the push to go HD is to get a leg up as a small boutique shop and be more competative in a wider market. It levels the playing field for smaller shops. Panasonic, in one day (the anouncment of the HVX) took DVC-PRO HD from a $100k entry level system (roughly, lets not nit-pick on prices, I'm close and I'm on a roll) to a $20K entry level system. Thats amazing.

Even though, I love the Panasonic and want to get into DVCPRO-HD, I have been looking at that new HDV deck Sony just introduced. I need another deck and that, with DV, DVCAM and HDV looks kinda sweet. But I have no interest in the HDV cameras. So I am not that pissed at the HDV consortium.

I do post on DV.com
 
Barry_Green said:
Jan made an interesting point at NAB to me, about people comparing the cost of P2 cards, and how Panasonic is "overcharging" -- it costs money to build these cards, to manufacture them to absolute 100% reliability standards, etc. But if someone thinks they can make 'em cheaper, by all means, go ahead. If you can deliver a P2-compatible card for $400 or $500 or $600 or whatever, with 100% reliability, Panasonic will purchase thousands of them from you right now, today. Just call Jan for the purchase order number.
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So you think any manufacturer can just make a card with the same P2 confugurations that has been protected by how many patents? In my opinion you "moderators" should be here to push people like Jan. Encourage them to encourage the corporate ones who push the money. I would think the modorators would lead the revolution as to what the people really need.

I wish you'd fight for lower P2 storage prices, becuase we all think it can be done. If P2 storage is so similar to other, cheaper versions, why is it so expensive? If it can't be done, maybe Jan could tell us why in a price breakdown. To me it sounds like Panny did something GREAT, made everyone trust that they could make a quality product and now they want to flex their power on the back end. Why be so sarcastic to one your members who just simply wants to afford the camera? Now tell me his argument about flash storage doesn't make sense . . .

We all love Panasonic, but they are still a corporation here to make as much money as possible. Convince them that we would buy many more cards to make up for a lower price. Take our side. Did anyone ever scoff at you becasue you couldn't afford equipment? Remember why this forum SHOULD be here. THIS IS OUR VOICE, THE USERS VOICE. Let them answer to us, fight for us, make them listen like you keep saying they do. It's clear that the majority would like to see MUCH lower prices for P2 storage. Would you be upset if they lowered the price? C'mon now Berry.
 
I wasn't being sarcastic. I was being legit. She made the offer to someone else who was saying that the "cards can't cost that much". She said something on the order of "if you can legitimately deliver them for less, we'll buy 5,000 of 'em right now". And she was serious.

The P2 cards will be made by many manufacturers. Anyone who wants to license the technology can make fully P2-compliant cards. Count on seeing them from companies like SanDisk, PNY, Kingston, etc.

If anyone thinks they can legitimately make the cards for less, I'm saying that Panasonic has extended the offer. Meet their quality standards, and they'll buy thousands from you.

Just so you keep it straight, us "moderators" are just volunteers -- we have no official standing, nor any affiliation with, the DVXUser site. And the DVXUser site is one guy, Jarred Land, and he has no ties to Panasonic at all. This is an all-volunteer effort, it receives *no* funding from Panasonic, and it is all "all about the users" all the time.

Regarding your exhortation to "take your side" -- dude, work with me. What you're clamoring for is like asking Dodge to build the Viper for $15,000, because you could get a loan for $15,000 but you could never afford $80,000. And after all, what can some bolts and sheet metal cost, really, anyway? Who wouldn't want a Viper for $15,000? That doesn't mean it's going to happen.

If a possibility exists to make less-expensive P2 cards, you can bet that several manufacturers will leap on it.
 
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