..yeah, ive never had an HDD crash on me.. ever. im not worried in the least as far as working with on in the field. as far as archival. as jan suggests, im sure ill be going to a new optical disk format. cause they are as stable as anything else ..and more stable than tape. nothing is bullet proof when it coes to electronic media, but i trust optical disks more than most other formats any day.
P2 Shenanigans
- Thread starter ettubaby
- Start date
I am without a doubt going to be purchasing the HVX200 when it becomes available and I'll say upfront I believe it to be a 'revolutionary' camera with Panasonic 'giving people what they want' as oppossed to Sony or Canon. I've owned Canon XL1,XL1s & XL2 + DVX100.
What amazes me is that in the case of P2 cards is that Panasonic have a 'roadmap' showing an doubling of size of the P2 cards over an equally incremental time frame.
I am cynical that this is classic marketing of pricing a product to what the market will absorb.
Example, we will shortly have 8GB P2 cards at the price of the old 4GB P2 cards on so forth. Also, how do the Panasonic R&D people know that the P2 cards could ever hold 128GB in the same physical case when they launched the product? When the recent 8GB announcement was made I heard no accompanying press release that Panasonic had made a technical breakthough allowing the doubling of capicity!
Ever noticed this scenarios with CD & DVD burners - Starts off at single speed, the 2,4,8,16,48, 52 etc. This happens all over the IT industry and obviously technology in general. Something I believ IBM started many years ago.
That said I believe the HVX and P2 in particular will easily still be justifiable and therin (when I think about) lies the answer.
What amazes me is that in the case of P2 cards is that Panasonic have a 'roadmap' showing an doubling of size of the P2 cards over an equally incremental time frame.
I am cynical that this is classic marketing of pricing a product to what the market will absorb.
Example, we will shortly have 8GB P2 cards at the price of the old 4GB P2 cards on so forth. Also, how do the Panasonic R&D people know that the P2 cards could ever hold 128GB in the same physical case when they launched the product? When the recent 8GB announcement was made I heard no accompanying press release that Panasonic had made a technical breakthough allowing the doubling of capicity!
Ever noticed this scenarios with CD & DVD burners - Starts off at single speed, the 2,4,8,16,48, 52 etc. This happens all over the IT industry and obviously technology in general. Something I believ IBM started many years ago.
That said I believe the HVX and P2 in particular will easily still be justifiable and therin (when I think about) lies the answer.
I think what is becoming clear is that, this is a much more expensive platform.
1. 4 times more data than dv
2. tape back is required -- I currently backup all my dv tapes.
Honestly, jumping on this camera will be $20K+ expense. Something you look at the price of the camera and not think what is needed to make it work.
1. 4 times more data than dv
2. tape back is required -- I currently backup all my dv tapes.
Honestly, jumping on this camera will be $20K+ expense. Something you look at the price of the camera and not think what is needed to make it work.
..thats only if you want to work with tape. which is NOT required. you could back of DV material to DVD cheaper and more reliably than tape right now. and with larger capacity optical discs coming out you could do the same with flavors of DVCPRO HD or DVCPRO 50. others like myself wil be perfectly happy shooting on P2 and HDD and archiving to optical disk. we'd only have to output to tape when required, and the job your doing it for should cover that cost anyway... which is true if your working for hire with tape all the time too, but were in general talking about projects that are unfunded.. or there would be no problem with cost at all. if they wanted tape they would pay for it.
so all said and done your cost of doing things tapeless is only a few grand more than the camera. but if it comes with a P2 card that useable for HD it could be apx only a hundred bucks (more or less...pending the size of drive) more than the cam for a FW or USB2.0 drive to dump to. and since P2 and HDDs are reuseable we wouldnt incure another a minimum of 70.00 for each shoot like someone using tape backup and archival would. since DVCPRO flavors of tape run apx 70.00+ for each tape you use.
20k is really a rediculous figure for people who are willing to embraces digital file aquisition and storage. it might be pretty accurate if you want to use tape though. although that figure would increase every time you bought a tape, and spent time digitizing or exporting to tape for archival. time is money too.
so all said and done your cost of doing things tapeless is only a few grand more than the camera. but if it comes with a P2 card that useable for HD it could be apx only a hundred bucks (more or less...pending the size of drive) more than the cam for a FW or USB2.0 drive to dump to. and since P2 and HDDs are reuseable we wouldnt incure another a minimum of 70.00 for each shoot like someone using tape backup and archival would. since DVCPRO flavors of tape run apx 70.00+ for each tape you use.
20k is really a rediculous figure for people who are willing to embraces digital file aquisition and storage. it might be pretty accurate if you want to use tape though. although that figure would increase every time you bought a tape, and spent time digitizing or exporting to tape for archival. time is money too.
DVDs are not more reliable than tapes. Remember, DVD are random access, block are linked, a defect in one area could render the entire disk might be unrecoverable. DVD are fragile. Where tapes are sequential, you can splice them, they last forever - very long time.
Really, you have some points, but it comes down to how much you value your footage, if you're are just messing around with the camera then, sure, I would not make the investment.
Really, you have some points, but it comes down to how much you value your footage, if you're are just messing around with the camera then, sure, I would not make the investment.
..if you burn and verify- youknow its good, and DVD the shelf life can be over 100 years.. its fragility wont matter if the disc is in a case and stored carefully. a DV tape will start to lose its signal from the second you put it on the shelf. and really only has a max reliable shelf life of under 10 years. becuase its only a magnetic recording. and could also be screwed up by magnatism and is much more affected by heat and cold than a recordable optical disk .. especially considering the lubricant must be kept fressh as well in the tape or upon playing it again you will get dropouts and such. an optical disk has its surface permanently altered and is much less susceptable to anything screwing it up.. aside from physical dmg to the disk surface like scrathing it.. which is easily avoided by safe and stable storage.
DVD vs Tape is a point of preference. My issue which DVD is the single point of failure that they have, but if you're careful, it will probably be ok. In terms of tape life, if stored in the right conditions, not played repeatably it will last ever, the government agencies do this. Some of original German tape recording from the early 40's are still in excellent playing condition. I guess its all in the care.
Rosestar
Well-known member
ettubaby said:
This debate is crazy. You obviously have to have tape. So be it. Right now, your choices are pay, the outlandish prices for professional HD (HDCAM or DVCPRO HD) or buy a HDV camera. However, do not compalain about not being able to compete in your market, when your competition is using high data rate HD on solid state memory.
Personally, I believe that P2 and all of the advantages it offers is the main selling point of the HVX. For now though, forget the HVX, I can't wait for the P2 Varicam!!! Without a tape drive they could get a version of the camera down to around $500/rental, and not have to then rent a deck for the digitizatioin! Take my HDDs back to Final Cut and finish the movie.
Also, it amazes me that the "don't trust P2 and HDV is cheaper" people are forgetting the the price of an HDV deck. The Z1u and the HD100, with supporting decks are more than the HVX with 2 8gig P2 cards (projected). Does using those 6 grand cameras as editing decks make a lot of sense to people who are so worried about the long term consequences of their investments?
thisiswells
Retired
This is good discussion. The true cost of upgrading to 100Mbps HD is still pretty high. Anyone of us could write professionally on the finer points of hardware we could need to monitor, edit, store, archive data four times higher than what we're used to. The cost is pretty high... all things considered it may be four times my current investment in camera and computer and yet still that is significantly less than other alternatives which could be upwards of twenty or thirty times as much as DV. I'm trying to add perspective here. When considering the final cost of upgrading to a format that carries four times the information, it is daunting. Fortunately, I am able to make the transition over time and as my needs expand. That's the fortunate thing for me anyways.
thisiswells
Retired
Kudos to the developers for proof of concept in shooting higher frame-rates to card, then downconvert to tape at standard speed. That is the right decision. This creates an immediate way for me to access the main feature I like: variable frame rates for authentic slow-motion effect. Thank you to Jan and everyone involved at Panasonic for a this one of a kind idea. It's brilliant.
pmark23
Veteran
PKraft said:
Firewire would be easier, but we don't know yet if HD will be supported on it (I assume so, but you never know).
I was thinking along the lines of an open-source hardware project. :thumbsup:
PKraft said:
Problem with that analogy, is the the HVX200 comes not just with tires, but with wings, tank-treads (to crush Sony with), hoverjets, antigrav, and transwarp drive. :cheesy:
Barry_Green
Moderator
You can bet they'll make that product. And by lopping off the DVCPRO-HD tape deck portion, they'll lower the price by at least $15,000; maybe more like $20,000. More capability, lower price, lower rental cost, same great image...Rosestar said:
Already the SPX800 is basically an SDX900 but, by getting rid of the tape deck, they shaved the price by $8,000. And that's just for DVCPRO-50; DVCPRO-HD is a whole lot more expensive. Look for Varicam-P2 to be at least $20,000 less expensive than the current VariCam!
pmark23 said:
Hey, I did not say, the HVX would come with tires only.
All I said was, that would be as if buying a high speed car where the tires are of limited performance only. Notwithstanding all the other classy feature of that same car. That is a big difference.
I agree with you that the HVX is all of that marketing blabla you named in detail. But nevertheless it is limited right from its start insofar as its number one recording medium offers limited capacity only. And the P2 cards are part of the camera's core concept. And not an add on HDD from a third party supplier that was not even part of the first presentation of the camera at NAB. Maybe this HDD can solve all these problems, I mean hopefully. But what if this company does not perform and its engineers are not up to our expectations? We then have to go back to square one.
Those are the facts.
Hopefully camera and HDD will be available early next year, so I can use both during my trip down under. Would not want to have to postpone the trip or buy a Z1 instead.
thisiswells
Retired
What is square one? HDV? Here's the deal: HDV costs less as a total package.
All things considered, going HVX200 is definitely going to cost twice as much as an HDV setup.
They are completely different products. HVX clearly uses a better compression system and
will do much better with secondary color corrections and blowups with fewer compression artifacts.
I don't really think anyone questions that DVCPRO-HD is a better format and if they do, they need to find out why they think that, get the facts straight, and come back and have a legitimate discussion. For those that recognise the benefits of a DVCPRO-HD system, also at least consider that it will cost more than HDV. You'll need a faster computer to edit it, you will need server grade storage and backup systems, you will need a DL tape system for archival, you will have to deal with the inconveniences of expensive little cards that expire after twenty minutes. These are the facts. It's a whole lot more expensive. But, it also offers many benefits. Where the problem comes in is since the cameras (Z1, HD100, HVX200) are priced nearly identically, it's easy to balk and take it out on Panasonic for creating such an expensive, worthless workflow. It is a product they've developed. You don't have to buy it. But, at least acknowledge it has benegits far and wide over HDV in every aspect as a format, and that you either can't afford it/wish it were cheaper. That's the bottom line. It's more expensive, we wish it was cheaper. It isn't, so we work with what we've got, as we all have. MiniDV has been a good format for me for a long time and looking at all the new solutions, the HVX200 is the best solution for me because it offers me an immediate benefit of a newer warrantied camera and native 16x9 MiniDV recording. I can also record slowmotion on a 4GB inexpensive P2 Card and downconvert it to tape for real, true in-camera slowmotion. I can do all of this for about the same price as an HD100. Now, that might not be an easy choice to some people because the HD100 is high-definition and HVX200 to tape is not. But, for me and what I do, I think MiniDV is going to be just good enough. I don't need a new computer to edit it. I don't need a Blu-Ray or HD-DVD player. I don't have to convince alot of people to buy HD players, either. I think I would be doing alot of downconverting to bogg standard DVD for at least a year or two before the masses actually have a HD-capable home player. So, I think the HVX200 offers the best "upgrade path" into new technology that offers immediate benefit now, with a longer zoom lens than a DVX, with real 16x9, and real slowmotion in MiniDV quality, and it doesn't change my editing workflow, I don't need a new deck, I don't need to change anything except buying a newer camcorder. For me, I have made the decision that is the best choice for me and what I do. I can use it out of the box.
brian wells
All things considered, going HVX200 is definitely going to cost twice as much as an HDV setup.
They are completely different products. HVX clearly uses a better compression system and
will do much better with secondary color corrections and blowups with fewer compression artifacts.
I don't really think anyone questions that DVCPRO-HD is a better format and if they do, they need to find out why they think that, get the facts straight, and come back and have a legitimate discussion. For those that recognise the benefits of a DVCPRO-HD system, also at least consider that it will cost more than HDV. You'll need a faster computer to edit it, you will need server grade storage and backup systems, you will need a DL tape system for archival, you will have to deal with the inconveniences of expensive little cards that expire after twenty minutes. These are the facts. It's a whole lot more expensive. But, it also offers many benefits. Where the problem comes in is since the cameras (Z1, HD100, HVX200) are priced nearly identically, it's easy to balk and take it out on Panasonic for creating such an expensive, worthless workflow. It is a product they've developed. You don't have to buy it. But, at least acknowledge it has benegits far and wide over HDV in every aspect as a format, and that you either can't afford it/wish it were cheaper. That's the bottom line. It's more expensive, we wish it was cheaper. It isn't, so we work with what we've got, as we all have. MiniDV has been a good format for me for a long time and looking at all the new solutions, the HVX200 is the best solution for me because it offers me an immediate benefit of a newer warrantied camera and native 16x9 MiniDV recording. I can also record slowmotion on a 4GB inexpensive P2 Card and downconvert it to tape for real, true in-camera slowmotion. I can do all of this for about the same price as an HD100. Now, that might not be an easy choice to some people because the HD100 is high-definition and HVX200 to tape is not. But, for me and what I do, I think MiniDV is going to be just good enough. I don't need a new computer to edit it. I don't need a Blu-Ray or HD-DVD player. I don't have to convince alot of people to buy HD players, either. I think I would be doing alot of downconverting to bogg standard DVD for at least a year or two before the masses actually have a HD-capable home player. So, I think the HVX200 offers the best "upgrade path" into new technology that offers immediate benefit now, with a longer zoom lens than a DVX, with real 16x9, and real slowmotion in MiniDV quality, and it doesn't change my editing workflow, I don't need a new deck, I don't need to change anything except buying a newer camcorder. For me, I have made the decision that is the best choice for me and what I do. I can use it out of the box.
brian wells
terry_g_johnson
Member
PKraft said:
It seems irrational that Panasonic would relegate this feature which would do so much to expand the capabilities of this camera to a third party supplier. The rational explanation is that some powers within the company expect to make sizable profits from P2 sales and that same group are convinced that a really well implemented HDD solution would decrease Panasonic's overall profits. I’m sure there are other groups within the company who want to knock out the competition in the camera business and would sacrifice Panasonic's P2 profits to accomplish this. So what are you left with is kind of like "A deer in the headlights--which way to run?" :shocked:
thisiswells
Retired
I don't think Panasonic is trying to "stick it to us" for lack of better phrase with regard to P2 pricing.
They have a product. Either you want it or you wish it were cheaper. They have said they'll license
the tech. to anyone who believes they can make it cheaper. They're not in the business of selling
memory, at least they don't appear they want to be in that business. They (for purpose of this)
make a camcorder and wish to make profit on camcorders and by saturating an industry with
brand recognition for the best HD product under 10K. That's what they are trying to do...
They have publicly stated an affiliation with Focus Enhancements (company who does make a
HDD Direct-to-Disc solution for other camcorders). There is no reason to not believe they are
working together, as they've done for other products since they are partners, to jointly develop
a D2D HDD solution. I don't know where the cynicism and skepticism comes in. They're not trying to
royally screw the worlds video cameraman community with solid state memory prices.
brian wells
They have a product. Either you want it or you wish it were cheaper. They have said they'll license
the tech. to anyone who believes they can make it cheaper. They're not in the business of selling
memory, at least they don't appear they want to be in that business. They (for purpose of this)
make a camcorder and wish to make profit on camcorders and by saturating an industry with
brand recognition for the best HD product under 10K. That's what they are trying to do...
They have publicly stated an affiliation with Focus Enhancements (company who does make a
HDD Direct-to-Disc solution for other camcorders). There is no reason to not believe they are
working together, as they've done for other products since they are partners, to jointly develop
a D2D HDD solution. I don't know where the cynicism and skepticism comes in. They're not trying to
royally screw the worlds video cameraman community with solid state memory prices.
brian wells
Barry_Green
Moderator
And, again, you can use the camera with *no* P2 cards, on the first day it's released, and record HD video. You'd need to plug into a DVCPRO-HD deck or into a desktop or laptop computer that supports DVCPRO-HD-over-firewire capture, so I'm not saying it's all that practical, but the point is, it *could* be done, immediately, and you'd never have to buy a P2 card.
Secondly, they've made licensing of P2 technology a priority. They already have something like 70 "P2 Partners", of which Focus is just one.
Jan's in the business of selling cameras, not hard drives or memory cards. If Kingston or PNY or Crucial want to be selling P2 cards, that's fine with them. Just like with tape, where Fuji and Maxell are both licensed suppliers of DVCPRO tape.
Secondly, they've made licensing of P2 technology a priority. They already have something like 70 "P2 Partners", of which Focus is just one.
Jan's in the business of selling cameras, not hard drives or memory cards. If Kingston or PNY or Crucial want to be selling P2 cards, that's fine with them. Just like with tape, where Fuji and Maxell are both licensed suppliers of DVCPRO tape.
thisiswells
Retired
And, and, and... just to top it off. Think about how many companies already make SD cards.
You think they're just going to sit around when all they would need to do is build a presumably
simple PC-card sized enclosure and some specialised hardware inside to sell hundreds of thousands
of SD cards? I don't think they're going to watch that opportunity go with the wind. We'll see
dozens of companies developing their SD line into a P2 line and fishing for P2 card sales.
No doubt about it.
brian wells
You think they're just going to sit around when all they would need to do is build a presumably
simple PC-card sized enclosure and some specialised hardware inside to sell hundreds of thousands
of SD cards? I don't think they're going to watch that opportunity go with the wind. We'll see
dozens of companies developing their SD line into a P2 line and fishing for P2 card sales.
No doubt about it.
brian wells
Barry_Green
Moderator
And, and, and...
The SD card thing is a great point. Panasonic is the inventor of SD cards. Now over 700 companies make SD cards, or compatible products that use SD cards. I really don't think Panasonic's too focused on making some sort of proprietary, exclusionary model with the P2 cards. The SD forerunner alone should point where the P2 future is headed -- dozens of manufacturers, all competing and driving prices rock-bottom as soon as posible.
The SD card thing is a great point. Panasonic is the inventor of SD cards. Now over 700 companies make SD cards, or compatible products that use SD cards. I really don't think Panasonic's too focused on making some sort of proprietary, exclusionary model with the P2 cards. The SD forerunner alone should point where the P2 future is headed -- dozens of manufacturers, all competing and driving prices rock-bottom as soon as posible.