P2 Shenanigans

This camera seems ahead of its time in a good and bad way. Yes, everybody talks about the workflow of a P2 card being the same as film. You change film mags every 4 minutes (depending on size of mag) and with the 8GB card you will be changing every eight minutes. I actually don't have a problem with that. The big concern is how to back up the footage efficiently so there is a hard copy. Sounds like most people are saying put the footage to a laptop or on the field hard drive. I have had enough hard drives die on me to know this is not the safest solution. Backing up to a DVD would be a real pain, and I don't know if I could trust a burnt DVD as the final back up for footage anyway. It's true that a DVD not playing back or a Hard Drive dying doesn't happen too often, but all it takes is that one time.

I do think P2 is the wave of the future. Panasonic obviously has a reason for charging the price for it. However, the big question remains on how people are going to store the footage so everyone can sleep well at night. Even as a low budget indie filmmaker, I don't want to go back to my actors and tell them we have to shoot an entire day over because my hard drive quit. I would trust the P2 cards as a storage medium since they are solid state with no moving parts. But it sounds like they won't be affordable like tape for some time. It will be interesting to see how people solve this problem when the camera is finally released.
 
Editor321 said:
Quick Question:

Does final cut, pinnacle etc currently support DVCPRO-HD format?
Click to expand...
Avid Express HD, Canopus Edius, and Apple FCP-HD all support it right now. Others are expected to adopt it soon.
 
Deadzone said:
This camera seems ahead of its time in a good and bad way. Yes, everybody talks about the workflow of a P2 card being the same as film. You change film mags every 4 minutes (depending on size of mag) and with the 8GB card you will be changing every eight minutes. I actually don't have a problem with that. The big concern is how to back up the footage efficiently so there is a hard copy. Sounds like most people are saying put the footage to a laptop or on the field hard drive. I have had enough hard drives die on me to know this is not the safest solution. Backing up to a DVD would be a real pain, and I don't know if I could trust a burnt DVD as the final back up for footage anyway. It's true that a DVD not playing back or a Hard Drive dying doesn't happen too often, but all it takes is that one time.

I do think P2 is the wave of the future. Panasonic obviously has a reason for charging the price for it. However, the big question remains on how people are going to store the footage so everyone can sleep well at night. Even as a low budget indie filmmaker, I don't want to go back to my actors and tell them we have to shoot an entire day over because my hard drive quit. I would trust the P2 cards as a storage medium since they are solid state with no moving parts. But it sounds like they won't be affordable like tape for some time. It will be interesting to see how people solve this problem when the camera is finally released.
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We should not compare to film, film is ancient, they were changing reels in 1910!

the future... one wore: Wireless.
wireless DV should be possible now. :)
 
Wireless DV should indeed be possible now -- with 802.11g, you can get a theoretical 54mbps, although that rarely happens in reality... but that's twice the data rate of DV.

Give it a year, you should definitely see some wireless DV products on the market! For that matter, wireless HDV should be just as possible.
 
I didn't think of that wireless HDV, but imagine what it will do to the efficient of film. editing the rushes has they come in. You know what works, what don't. what you didn't think of... I term of the creative process, this would be the ideal. It's not the technical stuff that's will make a great film. If anyone has seen TARNATION, the guy did for 200 bucks using iMovie, and its playing at the theater down the street.
 
That's the thing about P2, and about DV Rack... you don't even have to wait to edit the rushes as they come in. You can view it right on the set and see if it works. You can cut it instantly and see if ithe angles work, if the continuity lines up, etc. There's nothing like it!
 
Barry_Green said:
That's the thing about P2.... You can cut it instantly and see if ithe angles work, if the continuity lines up, etc. There's nothing like it!
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Exactly! This is a very exciting project, and I'd much rather see people discussing the possibilities of the format rather than complaining about the record times. P2 is going to open up an entire new world. Personally I can't wait to fire the HVX200 up on set in conjunction with FCP5 on my PowerBook...yeee haaa!! :)


harlan
 
Let's start seeing some critical thinking here.

Memory prices aren't going to stay the same for ever and ever. Anyone who's into computers knows this and has experienced it first hand (I remember buying a 16 meg simm for my Linux system in '93 for $600. A few years later they were $20.) In a few years (before the next new Panasonic camera) you'll be able to buy a 64 gig P2 card for $50 or less.

Secondly the P2 port is just an I/O interface. There's absolutely no reason why someone can't make a P2-to-SATA adapter from a commonly available SBC (raw cost: <$100). Or even faster (development-wise), a FireWire-to-SATA adapter.


Bitching about P2 at this stage in time is silly. It's just one option among many -- be glad that you have it.
 
No HDRack because of Microsoft's problem

No HDRack because of Microsoft's problem

Barry_Green said:
That's the thing about P2, and about DV Rack... you don't even have to wait to edit the rushes as they come in. ... There's nothing like it!
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I didn't know when/where to bring this up, but it appears a good time. I spoke with the developer of DV Rack at NAB this week. I'm talking about the guy who actually sat there and coded it out, not CEO, former-Newtekian-and-PlayInc guy, Mark Randall. His name is Benoit Ambry. He explained to me there is a serious problem with DVCPRO-HD and DVRack working together: Microsoft.

Let me explain. The DVCPRO-HD codec is openly available and is already set in place in the DVRack software. Benoit has everything in place to support it. The problem is Microsoft DOES NOT support DVCPRO-HD over firewire. At NAB, Microsoft had a gigantic display touting the VC9/WM9 encoding concept of HD. At the demonstration they were using the firewire-capable Panasonic HD1200A DVCPRO-HD deck.. I specifically asked them at the "Microsoft: Ask An Expert" bar at the demonstration if they were going HD-SDI or firewire out of the deck and into the computer. His comment was, "Oh, we use HD-SDI. Firewire, you see... is really taxing on the hardware and it just isn't fast enough to support HD" Unbelievable.

I went back and spoke with Benoit and told him this. He explained to me he calls them on a daily basis trying to convince them to support HD over FW and said it goes on deaf ears. he told me, "Nothing ever happens unless everyone is beating down their doors" So, I promised him I would try to help raise hell on the internet to get Microsoft to support it. I have no reason to believe what he told me isn't true. He is a very passionate guy about his work and is very proud of their accomplishments... and very irriated at Microsoft. So, if someone wants to lobby for a good cause, this would be a good cause.

brian wells
 
According to this site, Windows plans to support DVCPRO HD. They also plan to develop a 64 bit OS, but that was a while ago. :evil:
 
pmark23 said:
Secondly the P2 port is just an I/O interface. There's absolutely no reason why someone can't make a P2-to-SATA adapter from a commonly available SBC (raw cost: <$100). Or even faster (development-wise), a FireWire-to-SATA adapter.
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True. However, you need some "intelligence" to make the HD record what comes out from that interface. It should be feasible to put that "intelligence" into the p2/sata adapter you mention, though. But who would have a commercial interest to build such an adapter? For sure not Panasonic.

My assumption is, it will be far easier to achieve the same effect via the firewire interface. As every simple PC plus some simple video edit software can turn an HD – connected to the PC via firewire – into "record mode", so it should be easy for Panny to build such a feature into their camera, too. Yes, I am pretty sure, that is feasible. Question is, does Panny have an interest to do it?

pmark23 said:
Bitching about P2 at this stage in time is silly. It's just one option among many -- be glad that you have it.
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Well, I am not quite with you. A central feature of a product requires a viable workflow solution. You don't buy a car that can make 280 km/h but the sales person tells you: Well, don't push it beyond 50 km/h right now with the tires it comes with. Of course, high speed tires for 100 km/h will be available sometime next year and the full speed tires in about three years time.
 
P2 will help you loose your precious footage

P2 will help you loose your precious footage

Hi there!

I am confused. DEADZONE has a very good point and no one seems to think/comment about that.

B A C K U P.
K E E P I N G Y O U R F O O T A G E.

I can see that P2 or any other non-tape technology makes sense for ENG or other any other get-it-really-fast-on-air tasks.

But the DVX/HVX is not made and used for that. It's cleary made for and used by indie filmmakers and I can not see at all, why anyone should risk losing his precious footage by copying it on a HARDDISK. Come on! Even if you trust your harddisk (which is stupid - no offense) because you use a fault tolerant RAID or so - what, if you want to access your original footage 5 years later? You want to burn 500 GB on DVDs? RIDICULOUS! DLT? Keep the harddisks? Well, possible, but very, very expensive. And still - what if your raw-footage-harddisk dies? It's your only copy. I've seen a ruined tape once, which could be repaired with 20 seconds of footage loss. Try that with a physically broken harddisk.

I'm working as a professional editor for 8 years now and at least 5 times I've seen data lost on harddisks (even on MOST expensive RAID-5s). Only way to get it back was, to redigitize it.

No, really. I agree P2 is great for ENG and P2 is great in terms of it makes a camera like the HVX possible, because a TAPE drive supporting these high data rates would be way more expensive (I guess).

As an indie filmmaker, I am really very, very, very suspicious and sceptical.
 
..if you want tape backup, why dont you just output it to a dvcpro tape if you want? theres nothing stopping you from doing that.

i dont understand what the hassle is.. just back it up any way you want to .. if you want to pay for DVCPRO tapes and have or want to pay for renting a DVCPRO deck.. there no reason you cant backup to your beloved tape.

i think most people would be fine having it on a large capacity optical disk, but if not you can use whatever you want to archive to. you just need the equipment to do it. if you want DVCPRO tape backups.. youll just have to pay for the DVCPRO equipment to do it.
 
@iamloser

Well, I was thinking there is NO way of copying DVCPRO-HD footage on regular DVCPRO tapes. Okay, maybe I was wrong. If it is possible I'm asking myself why Panasonic is not integrating that feature into the HVX???
And if I choose an external tape drive, maybe even a DVCPRO-HD one - thats again way too expensive. Do you know what a DVCPRO-HD deck costs?

That's the hassle!
 
There is no way to back-up HD content on regular tape. But with everybody talking about tape, consider this: if there was a DVCPRO tape mechanism in this cam, it would cost another 10k$. I can understand that backup is important. But if you backup to a secondary harddisk for the duration of your project you'll be fine for then. I never heard two separate harddisks breaking up @ the same time. Well, unless in a fire or hit by lightning.
The P2 won't break down and if you copy the footage from the p2 to two drives and if one should brake down; make another backup drive; there's no more problem.
And when your project is fininshed you put everything (used shots, shots you didn't use but want to keep and the final product) on DVCPRO HD tapes for the archive. This way you have to rent a deck for one or two days @ the end of your project. And you are sure not to loose any footage.
Won't break the bank and not a lot of hassle either.
 
.. oliver, you could run a DVCPRO or DVCPRO HD backup off the firewire port of the camera to a tape deck if you wanted. .. but my point wasnt directed towards backing up on the set.. only "backing up" to tapes for archival.. anyway.. its possible to do both if you wanted.

..JAN bee, i was just using "dvcpro" as an all inclusive word to denote that you could backup to the format that your recording required. you would likely want a DVCPRO HD deck that can playback or record the other DVCPRO formats as well. and you would use the appropriate tape for the format you recoded in. i didnt want to start listing all the formats.. so i bundled them all as DVCPRO.. anyway .. the point is that its possible to do what you want. again, you simply have to pay for doing what you want to do. DVCPRO HD is a high quality professional format. if you want to start using thoise costly tapes to back up or archive to.. you can. but you cant complain about the price they cost.. they cost what they need to cost. .. complaining about that is like saying you want a lamborghini and one day sombodey makes it possible for you to have one so you buy it , and then complain that you cant afford the gas. ... lets be real. you cant have your cake and eat it too. im sure youd say you want a dalsa or a cine alta or a 35mm camera. but then when you sawt he cost of operation youd freak.. well thats just life. the new HVX camera is extremely affordable , but if you still want a tap backup it will cost you the same as it would with a varicam. thats why alot of us are looking at other options. if you need tape, then you need to pay for it. thats been the reality of the matter since long before the HVX came along. now there are ways to do things cheaper with HDDS and optical disks.. but if you dont like it.. well, then youll have to pay for the tapes and tape equipment just like people have been doing for many years now. its nothing new.. and its certainly nothing to complain about. like oliver said you could always rent it.. or i would just take an HDD into a transfer house and have them run a tape off.
 
filmstox said:
hmmmm.... screams DV Rack on Mac! Or even Linux.
Click to expand...

Sent them an email asking for a Mac OS X version,
however no feedbeck from their side so far.

Frankly, I would prefer some of DV Rack's function integrated into the HVX200 itself.
Wouldn't that be much smarter then have to go through an extra laptop? Should be possible to connect an external monitor to the hvx 200 for wave form and so forth.
 
JanBee said:
B A C K U P.
K E E P I N G Y O U R F O O T A G E.
But the DVX/HVX is not made and used for that.
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Hi, let us at least keep which camera we are talking about separate. The DVX should not be included here as it is a DV tape based camera. The HVX200 is the camera, so let's just stay focused on it and its proposed workflow.

It's cleary made for and used by indie filmmakers and I can not see at all, why anyone should risk losing his precious footage by copying it on a HARDDISK. Come on! Even if you trust your harddisk (which is stupid - no offense) because you use a fault tolerant RAID or so - what, if you want to access your original footage 5 years later? You want to burn 500 GB on DVDs? RIDICULOUS! DLT? Keep the harddisks?
Click to expand...

The way I see people working today is also a little in the questionable domain. They go out and record on DVCPRO HD or DVCPRO50 tape, they come back, they pay for someone else to make down-converted copies and a same resolution copy to protect their master and then they start to work. (I am focusing this discussion on the DVCPRO50 and the DVCPRO HD level because the camera does DV25 on tape, so if that is where you want to stay, there it is.) Once this is done, they start to digitize. Depending how much footage there is it may take a day or weeks to capture it all.

With P2 one could over the course of the shoot, have not only the original data copied on to a hard drive but the backup could be done as well. Then once the shoot is over the redundant hard drives move back to the studio, the back up goes up on a shelf and the work of selection and editing begins. Long term back up can go to DLT or LTO, or Blue-ray, or Holographic Blue laser. I sort of like this last one as it seems to have the longest shelf life, 50 years, which is better than what tape has proven to be. This is at a cost than DVCPRO HD tape or even DVCPRO50 tape. And since I do not have to save the good with the bad it actually is even less expensive that what the dollar for dollar says.

As an example using the Promo pricing from the Tape Resources website, I can buy an hours worth of DVCPRO HD for $51.00. (This is a great price, BTW; normal pricing is closer to $70-$120 per hour i.e., B & H has it for $76 per hour) This comes in at about .85 per gig. The Holographic Blue Laser goes to .35 per gig. Point is that if you archive the tape, all of the bad takes, the blown lines, the boom mic in the shot stuff, etc., is also saved, so that inherently raises the cost per gig. So out of an hour, let's say that 60% is good stuff. That said, then the cost per good gig is $1.41. The bad footage gets to stay and you have to search through it as well when you go to re-use the good take and redigitize.

Of course there is the process of sitting there to digitize the footage, a thoroughly non-creative exercise. You say you have a PA do that, well that still has a cost. Then you get to sit down and start to make decisions. With the P2 workflow, attach one of the hard drives that was brought back in from the field, and start making decisions.

And as far as those copies that were made to protect the master? It wouldn't be the first time that a dub house has made a bad copy. Over the last year alone, I have heard of where they made a component dub instead of a digital one, or an SDI dub where they should have made a 1394 one to preserve the pull down flags in DVCPRO50. So then the masters get to be played one more time without having a back up.

Well, possible, but very, very expensive. And still - what if your raw-footage-harddisk dies? It's your only copy. I've seen a ruined tape once, which could be repaired with 20 seconds of footage loss. Try that with a physically broken harddisk.
Click to expand...

For long-term archive, I would not suggest the hard drive solution, short-term yes. Heck my life's work right now is on the hard drive of this computer and until I am back on the network Monday, I won't be able to back up. There are levels of risk we all run, and this is as risky as handing over a tape to a dub house to make a copy. If you have seen a hard drive crash 5 times, I too have seen tapes lost or ruined. The key difference here is that we can walk away from the shoot with the back up done and for about the same price.

I'm working as a professional editor for 8 years now and at least 5 times I've seen data lost on harddisks (even on MOST expensive RAID-5s). Only way to get it back was, to redigitize it.
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Which is why on a long-term basis, HDD is not the archive. But tape is also very expensive, especially when you cross over the DV paradigm. DV tape is cheap, DVCPRO50 and DVCPROHD is quite a bit more expensive. You present your entire argument as if the DVCPRO HD tape were the same price as DV, it is not. A full data archive has many advantages, this first is cost per gigabyte.

No, really. I agree P2 is great for ENG and P2 is great in terms of it makes a camera like the HVX possible, because a TAPE drive supporting these high data rates would be way more expensive (I guess).
Click to expand...

There is no "I guess" about it. The record head drum all by itself is $6400, then the transport is $3600, then the chassis is another $3000. And none of this would fit into the body of the HVX200.

As an indie filmmaker, I am really very, very, very suspicious and sceptical
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Skeptical I can understand, but suspicious? This says that somehow someone is plotting against you and your footage; that perhaps Panasonic is trying to lull you into believing the P2 story so that we can "nail" your footage. ;-) Skepticism isn't bad, it is probably healthy. It is what one uses to lead oneself through the discovery process. Suspicious says something totally different.

Anyhow I hope this helps,

Jan
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iamloser said:
.. oliver, you could run a DVCPRO or DVCPRO HD backup off the firewire port of the camera to a tape deck if you wanted. .. but my point wasnt directed towards backing up on the set.. only "backing up" to tapes for archival.. anyway.. its possible to do both if you wanted.
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Mine wasn't either.
I would use tape for archiving only. And indeed taking your HDD someplace to do so is easier.
But my point was to the people here who seem to be scared of losing their footage. If you down everything to an HDD but back it up on a secondary HDD aswell, there's only a very small risk of losing any footage. And if you don't trust it use some other cam. But HDV is not the same quality, and a DVCPRO HD cam with tape will be a very expensive workfow. Like iamloser said, you can't have your cake and eat it.
 
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