P2 Future ?

Also the best part pf P2 dumping on field is the painfully slow transfer speeds. if i use XDCAM Disks i shoot just like tapes forget it for a while then look back to edit w/o even bothering of making 2copies of each card shoot if from a P2 style shoot !!!

P2 is Pain2much !

I feel it but someone else who is enduring the pain of owning a P2 setup will certainly beg to differ. I realised it late but SONY is a clear winner !!! even a p2 user says that in his mind when he has to sit thu shoots & jumble cards to dump on HDDs & also then to keep the HDD safe. Man one has to carry so much of P2 gear... god forbid any P2 user if he has to go for a long shoot thru a place with nill or min power conn then he will certainly have to think million times as to how will he ever be able to make dump of p2 cards

Sony CLAPPING this is for you !!!
 
MikeD said:
Didn't help the fact that all the P2 cameras that the ABC bought (in Brisbane at least) are still packed in the boxes. Now they are all useless as they are the old SD models.
IMHO Panasonic had a winner on their hands but lost it with the cost of the cards. It is a shame as I like my P2 but looks like I may have to go to the 700 next year.
Click to expand...

Hi Mike, been looking at the 700 myself. TBH though would prefer to stay where I am for another year or two. This camera works great for most things.

Jonny Bravo said:
Also the best part pf P2 dumping on field is the painfully slow transfer speeds. if i use XDCAM Disks i shoot just like tapes forget it for a while then look back to edit w/o even bothering of making 2copies of each card shoot if from a P2 style shoot !!!

P2 is Pain2much !

I feel it but someone else who is enduring the pain of owning a P2 setup will certainly beg to differ. I realised it late but SONY is a clear winner !!! even a p2 user says that in his mind when he has to sit thu shoots & jumble cards to dump on HDDs & also then to keep the HDD safe. Man one has to carry so much of P2 gear... god forbid any P2 user if he has to go for a long shoot thru a place with nill or min power conn then he will certainly have to think million times as to how will he ever be able to make dump of p2 cards

Sony CLAPPING this is for you !!!
Click to expand...

Im trying to keep this thread on track and constructive. I dont personally see any advantage shooting Sony over p2, apart from what we are discussing here: p2 cost and market effect in Australia.

SO Ill go back to it. Mike, Tom, theres been a few willing to buy into Pana here. Guess where I am a bit raw, as we all said Aus is Sony centric, to that end I think Pana needs (not to hold our hands etc), but at least let us be competitive. Australia isnt like other countries. Barry Green knows what its like here, first hand. Would be good if they made the effort to talk to us at least. Just IMO.
 
Barry_Green said:
With that said, I think the ideal situation (and here I go harping on this again) is what I call "P3". That would be an expresscard-shaped inserted memory card that rides in a PCMCIA shell, like this:
http://www.duel-systemsadapters.com/?productid=DP-0002
Click to expand...

Basically you want panasonic to make sxs cards(since it's a card format and not a codec) and shoot dvcpro hd to them and send you a shell for compatibility with older models?

That makes the most sense to me too.

But if it's you only take it out of the shell for computer offloading even in new model cameras that just seems like a waste of effort to me.
 
noel evans said:
so ill go back to it. Mike, tom, theres been a few willing to buy into pana here. Guess where i am a bit raw, as we all said aus is sony centric, to that end i think pana needs (not to hold our hands etc), but at least let us be competitive. Australia isn't like other countries. Barry green knows what its like here, first hand. Would be good if they made the effort to talk to us at least. Just imo.
Click to expand...

Couldn't have said it better myself

Jan I realize that you work for Panasonic so have to be careful what you say but there is a serious problem here that if Panasonic ignores is going to (if not already) cost you a small fortune in lost sales.
I know of one network here that was interested in P2 but went to sony and the main reason was P2 cards costs. They ended up taking XDcam to the olympics as it would have cost more than the cameras to equipped each cameraman with enough cards to cover the 2 weeks of shooting. Yes they can download but I ask all the cameramen here that have done shoots like that, how long would it take for you to get very tired of having to do that every day.
I've had my 502 for about a year now and when I bought it the rumour mill was saying that the cost of the cards will fall soon. This is a rumour that we are still hearing and to be honest hasn't happened yet.
To be honest I think the race has been run and the winner is not P2. Such a shame.
 
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All this talk about the difficulty. I just don't know. We shoot in house, on boats, in the wild, in the rain, in the wind, all over the place and though I budgeted for another card to go with our original four, we haven't needed it yet.

Four cards seems to get us through a day quite nicely, and we dump them off to a laptop when we're done.

Honestly not a problem. I could tell you what would be a problem, unzipping the rain cover, removing the Kata shell, yanking out a disk and popping an new one in. Not the end of the world but I'm glad I don't have to mess with that.

Also, turn on time. I don't know what the xdcams are like but man, you're cooking along in a boat, suddenly you see a whale breech, it's nice to have a camera that is ready to go before you stand up.

True there are some worries that sometimes you won't have enough room, but a laptop in a bag solves that problem.
 
Hi Guys,
Good discussion indeed, Pana have not "kept the Pace" as Sony has, Too many promises, Not enough delivery, Sure P2 suits plenty of users and XDCam is being seen as the format of choice of the "broadcast" world (especially here downunder) as they go down the FTP transfer of media back to base.
Love to get a cheap unused SPX900 or two out of Brizzy, would be good as a spare/second cam, maybe a clearing sale in the wind?.
Ther'es nothing wrong with SD in my opinion.
This industry moves at light speed, to be competitive you have to move with it at that speed. Pana has lagged behind and may pay the long term price for pondering and not delivering promised products/firmware/ect.

I love my p2 , I have learned to use various record methods for differing jobs, eg HDD via firwire for long form jobs, P2 for news and commercial shoots, even have down streamed to tape and DVD disc for old fashioned clients.
Love the SDI out from Cam and Record section too.

I'd love to have a 250gig HDD as a "slot in" just like the radio receiver does, that would be great, and the USB port to talk to a laptop and do in field edits AND lay that edit sequence back to the P2 card in camera for playout as the XDCam does.

Finally, all this reminds me of the "Tortise and Hare" race. dosen't matter who is the best, it's the first over the line that takes the spoils.

Cheers from downunder
Tom K
olinevideo.com.au
 
I've always been a Sony guy, from shooting TV news to film projects and everything in between, until the HPX500 came along. Loved it. But why...oh why so expensive...those lovely p2 cards. Bringing a laptop, a hard drive, a car power adaptor, and hiring an assistant just to dump footages is a drag. Especially shooting in remote villages of Thailand. Had to shut down production for the day a couple of times because the laptop refuses to cooperate and the cards are full. But, don't take any of my words for it. THat was just my experience.

Hey, SONY...why are you guys making butt ugly cameras now? Oh, sorry...beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I forgot about that...lol.

JAN, tell panasonic to bring the price of those dang P2 cards down for us, would you?
 
If someone says "the system isn't ideal for my use," and lets it go at that, fine. No system is ideal for everyone and every use.

But what I don't get are the people who say "I have trouble doing X with it ("X" being something 99.9% of other users don't do), therefore, the whole system sucks and Panasonic is being a bunch of money-grubbing jerks."
 
From what I know the P2 format has some speed advantages when rendering in NLE´s. The XDCAMHD format is more compressed, lets you store more film on the same size memory card but is a PITA in post compared. I wonder why ARD-ZDF-ORF have gone Sony ? But they have.....Pana lost for some reason and that must have been P2, I cant imagine any other reason. Since I work for the above mentioned stations, I would never get a hpx171! I was thinking about it and had some talks....as much as I dislike Sony and will try to avoid it, the decisions have been made.
 
ChipG said:
Has anyone been following this thread about sd cards working in ec adapters on sony camera's. The cost has been dramaticly cut, it's a very interesting thread.

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=146972
Click to expand...

This is a huge part of the problem. I have often wondered what would happen if I got an old 4gig P2 card, pulled it apart and placed 4 8 gig SDHC class 6 cards in it and reformatted in the camera.
At about $200 for the old card and $60 per sd card you have a 32 gig P2 card for $440. A far cry from the $2000 a 32 gig P2 cards are here in Oz. (and cue dire warning from Panasonic )
 
I think spec com tried it and couldn't get it to work, makes you kinda loose more and more hope for cheap P2 prices. At least sony has a workaround now that will save me so much money I can buy another camera.

Just for the record I'm an hvx P2 owner.
 
What television networks chose to do does not mean it's the best choice. When I was still in graduate school at UCLA I made docs for FIRST TUESDAY (NBC's version of 60 MINUTES)... NBC News had "adopted" the 16mm Auricon sound-on-film camera, a horrible, unwieldy block of metal. I purchased, on my own, an Eclair NPR and Nagra III because I hated their cameras.

I make my decisions as a working director/cinematographer, not because some executive in an insulated corner office somewhere is counting beans.

For me, the future is solid state, not another version of rolling tape and/or film. I like the solid feel of P2 cards, and I like that they work, and I very much like the pictures I'm getting from my HPX500. That's all there is to it. I'm not dogmatic, when something better comes along, I won't hesitate to use it.
 
Mac I assume your talking about in the US. We are discussing Australia, a much smaller market.

For the record though, I couldnt care what SOny does with sxs at this stage, they dont make any 2/3" camera that uses sxs, so not really relevant to this discussion.


And please if you have a beef with p2 workflow, take it elsewhere, we are trying to look at some specific points.
 
I've been using P2 since it's inception, starting with the HVX, which I got just a few weeks after it came out. I just wrote a big check for the new HPX2700, which I should get early November. Right now I'm using the HPX500 (just finished a 13-day doc shoot with it). Here are my observations:

1. The HPX is a helluva value. Amazing images, sometimes even seeming to rival the Varicam. I do use a Fuji 13x4.5, a $25k lens, so this helps :)

2. After a 16-hour day, transferring 4-5 cards isn't something I look forward to. That being said, I never shoot more than 5 32GB cards in a day, and when I travel I have my laptop, two drives, and my P2 card reader (the cheapest and most reliable "deck" you'll ever buy). My transfer session takes me about 10 minutes to set up at night, tops. Then it's off to bed and reviewing the clips in the morning. I've done this literally hundreds of times. Never a problem.

So number two is the "worst" part of P2. The best...

1. The images. This really isn't a P2 thing, but more a Panasonic thing, of course. Panasonic's images are the best and most filmic in the industry. Period. Well, the Red is pretty hot, but different camera. Panasonic makes me happy for my own projects, and makes me look good to clients. They fulfill the whole reason we're doing this in the first place: telling stories and making beautiful images. If P2 is the way to get there then so be it.

2. P2 has some incredible advantages over tape or XDCam. My favorites:

Incredibly fast startup and instant recording. This is so invaluable. I really can't imagine going back to tape or to XDCam.

Clients love seeing clips played back in the field. I can switch modes and be playing back a clip in maybe 5 seconds. Imagine doing this with tape, XDCam, or SxS.

I can shoot all day and never change a card. Again, can't imagine going back.

Cost: The original Varicam sold for almost $80k. I just bought the new one for $35k. A P2 card reader costs $2k. All of this gear has a 5-year warranty. P2 is an incredible value, though I agree that the cost of cards should have come down quicker. Overall, however, any workflow issues are far out-weighed by the incredible cost-savings P2 represents.

The image: with AVC-Intra, Panasonic is upping the ante with what is probably the best codec (with the exception of maybe the Red...again, apples and oranges) out there. This is what it's all about, and again Panasonic is delivering.

I'm sure there's much more I could say, but these are a few of my conclusions. LIke most of you, I wish P2 was conceived of in the Expresscard format, but it wasn't. Oh well. I use my card reader all the time anyway. Archiving is somewhat difficult, but if you are in this for the long haul then invest in an LTO-3 drive and never look back.

My two cents. I think P2 will be around for a very long time, and, to echo observations of Mac and others, feels like it was "built to last". I think XDCam and SxS (though I really respect Sony's quality in other areas) feel a little flimsy and unprofessional in comparison.

Peter
 
Peter I dont disagree with you. Its about more people / networks using p2 in Australia, so there is a broader acceptance. The number one issue seems to have been the initial outlay on p2 media, which caused many to shy away.
 
Noel Evans said:
Peter I dont disagree with you. Its about more people / networks using p2 in Australia, so there is a broader acceptance. The number one issue seems to have been the initial outlay on p2 media, which caused many to shy away.
Click to expand...

Totally agree with you on this Noel. And I should have added under the "minus" section how hard it can be sometimes to sell producers on P2. At the end of the day, a lot of times they like to walk away with a tape, which I understand. On Wednesday I'm meeting with a local doc production company which is currently producing a show on the HPX3000. The whole P2 thing has overwhelmed them, so I'm coming in to help explain the advantages and how to make it "work for you." Still a tough migration to this solid state, file-based workflow for many.

Peter
 
This is a prime example of the problem at hand.
I was talking to a friend from a production company in Sydney that do a lot of muti camera sports shoots. Some of which I have worked on for them. They usually have 5 to 7 cameras depending on the sport all iso recording and take the tapes, usually 7 hours worth per camera, away to edit later.
They looked at P2 and loved some features and the feel of the cameras. Then they realized that they would have to spend $28 000 to $30 000 per camera for P2 cards.
I asked about about having someone to dump the vision and this was not an idea they liked. They like the idea of having the original and minimizing the possible problems that may occur.
Yes they could reuse them for later shoots but you can do that with XDcam as well and you haven't spent anywhere near as much. The idea of loosing a laptop and having nothing left scares the hell out of them.
Bottom line, $4000+ per hour of recording will and is scaring alot of people away.
This then means that people like myself wanting to do shoots with them have to either

A: Hire a camera and minimize our profit
B: Buy a second camera. (excuse me while I check the glove box of my Ferrari for a spare $50 000)
C: Move away from P2
 
Tom 4 said:
Hi Guys
"My P2 observations"
P2 appears not be progressing as is the XDcam roll out, with pricing and integration with other equipment systems, my example,- our national broadcaster set up with P2 over 12 months ago, they are running extremely lean with cards because of the price point of the media.
Our other three major broadcasters have just invested in XDcam I'm told because of the price of the XDcam disc's, the intergration with FCP and the Macbook and it can be stored easlier and cheaply, un like P2.
Sony Camera gear is much more expensive than Panasonic cams, But, the Media is the huge difference, this "expensive difference" may lead to the possible demise of P2 achieving it's penetration across the board.
Maybe this is the point in time where Panasonic should re think it's future and adjust to it as the market decides what format is perceived to be the "better/best value for money".
Sorry if this is the incorrect forum to bring this up.
Cheers
Tom K
olinevideo.com.au
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Hi Tom,

I'm not quite sure where you intended to go with this post? However, Panasonic Australia is extremely happy with P2 in Australia. Our market share in the 2.6 years since Panasonic took over from Rexel continues to grow.

The ABC has got a large number of 8GB cards because that is what they wanted when looking at their options 2 years ago. Price of cards had NOTHING to do with their decision. Of course some cameramen want bigger cards. Who doesn't? And they have bought many 16 & 32's, and will buy many 64's in around 6 weeks when they arrive. For the ABC one format represented the future and overall they love P2.

Price of cards was NOT a major factor in Ten purchasing Xdcam. Price of cards was NOT a major factor in Seven buying Xdcam for Martin Place. I don't know who is feeding you this rubbish. That's two. SBS and Nine are yet to make a decision.

Let me assure you that Panasonic as a whole is very happy with P2's penetration "across the board". And Panasonic never stops re thinking its future. P2 is our future. Are you suggesting we abandon Solid State and go disk?
 
Noel Evans said:
Tom Id argue that Australia has and always will be a bit Sonycentric.

Still, here in Australia Panasonic had the gate open, when ABC switched, people noticed, but Pana have insisted on holding the prices (especially here in Aus).

Its a bummer really. At the current rate of progress here, the future seems to be shooting mostly on a Sony.

Be interested to here Rob Myer's opinion on all this.
Click to expand...

Hi Noel,

My opinion, I would expect to find this thread on xdcam.com.au!

As for prices, I think you'll find Australia very competitive against the US at the moment. Exchange rates play a big part in the business of any Australian importer.

Your future certainly is not one I agree with or intend to share.
 
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