Odyssey7Q

evilthought said:
Since they can't record 4K raw, they might not have horse power to debayer 4K 120 fps and record it in some other format.
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Dear Friends,

We have not addressed the 4K 120 fps mode, but I understand that this is a cached mode (buffered) and the actual output speed that we will see is less than 120 fps during playout.

This, we should be able to handle this mode. But, this is not a promise as we have not fully investigated this mode at this time.

Respectfully,


Dan Keaton
Convergent Design
 
rejdmast said:
Juan Martinez from Sony stated in a previous video on the web that the FS700 could read 300 fps.
(I wish I could find the link that the FS700 could read 300 fps although he never stated if it was 4K, binned, etc.)
Also, I believe the new Sony recorder will be able to buffer 4 seconds of 4K at 120fps.

In a previous post Dan Keaton from CD stated:
"The updated FS700 with our Odyssey7Q will be able to record full resolution 2K Raw at 240 fps continuously (which equates to 45 minutes using our largest SSD's).
I want to stress the full resolution part, this is not half vertical resolution, no sensor windowing, thus no moire problems."
This is good enough for me for the time being. :2vrolijk_08:
Click to expand...


Dear Friends,

Originally, we were going to offer 240 GB, 480 GB and 960 GB SSD's.

We now offer 256 GB and 512 GB SSD's at far lower prices.

These are better SSD's with more capacity (256 GB versus 240 GB, 512 GB versus 480 GB).

Since we do not offer the 960 GB SSD's, we can no longer support 2K Raw, continuously for 45 minutes.

Two 512 GB SSD's support up to 20 minutes of continuous recording time at 2K Raw, 12-Bit Linear, at 240 fps.

If this is played back at 24 fps, this is 200 minutes of slow-mo footage.

I hope this helps.

Respectfully,


Dan Keaton
Convergent Design
 
sebasti said:
Well it won't since the 4K only outputs 60p max.. any frame rate recording higher than that would need to be done from 2K RAW feed.
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Dear Sebasti,

The upgraded FS700 has a special 4K mode, which supports 120 fps recording, for around 4 seconds, to their internal buffer, to be played back at a slower speed to an external recorder such as ours.

Respectfully,


Dan Keaton
Convergent Design
 
Btw Dan, is there a chance for the 7Q to be able to trim videos in the future? Similar to what you can do to with atomos samurai?
 
freshTEA said:
Btw Dan, is there a chance for the 7Q to be able to trim videos in the future? Similar to what you can do to with atomos samurai?
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Dear FreshTEA,

That may be possible.

We want to add that to our roadmap, but we may need to do more research.

(Our engineers may already have a plan on how to accomplish this, I am not up-to-speed on this specific item.)

Respectfully,


Dan Keaton
Convergent Design
 
paulcurtis said:
Wishing you the best of luck, i can't wait to get my hands on it... (even if it's beta firmware!)



The concern about the 2K RAW solution is there is much higher aliasing because of the way Sony might be binning the pixels on the 4K sensor to give 2K. Aside from a few people (the cinegear presentation showed a substantial reduction is resolution here), no one has any sample footage of this yet to know what it's like. Certainly in standard modes (HD) the aliasing can be pronounced in some cases.

The other aspect is who actually wants to run 240fps continuously? Aside from scientific folk and specific applications i don't think i've ever needed any more than the burst mode.

The advantage to being able to record 4K buffered is simply one of quality. Slow motion has a habit of highlighting aliasing just because it's slow motion.

I can see me never using 2K RAW but, assuming possible, always wanting 4K buffered for that extra quality.

I think what i, and perhaps the community, has alway seen the 700 as a wolf in sheeps clothing. The sensor inside is more powerful than it's cost. The surrounding camera is not pro, but looked after and used carefully it's fine. The O7 recorder is the holy grail in giving us a chance to get the most out of that sensor in a way that isn't an ergonomic fail, nor a disproportionate cost. Hence the 4K capture at reasonable colour depth.

Do you know whether the uncompressed 4K is going to be an option to start with? Is it easier to dump 4K to disc like this compared to compressing it?

cheers
Paul
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Dear Paul,

Due to the large file sizes in 4K uncompressed, we currently feel that there may not be a large demand for this mode.

If this will be a feature (mode) that will be used, we can certainly implement it.

But, we have not seen a large demand for this so far.

(And I am not dismissing your request for us to do this, I am just stating that there has not been a large demand in the past.)

Respectfully,


Dan Keaton
Convergent Design
 
Dan Keaton said:
Dear Paul,

Due to the large file sizes in 4K uncompressed, we currently feel that there may not be a large demand for this mode.

If this will be a feature (mode) that will be used, we can certainly implement it.

But, we have not seen a large demand for this so far.

(And I am not dismissing your request for us to do this, I am just stating that there has not been a large demand in the past.)

Respectfully,


Dan Keaton
Convergent Design
Click to expand...

It's all about the quality difference and we can't say for sure. A 10 bit log encoded 4K stream compressed compared to a 12bit linear uncompressed stream - i suspect i'd be more than happy with the compressed version as the difference probably isn't that great. I may be slightly unusual in that i do vfx work with it, and those compression differences can matter to me.

My uncompressed comment was more about if 4K compressed was going to be difficult to get done within a decent timeframe then uncompressed might be an easier implementation.

Personally: 4K compressed, 10 bit log, would be ideal :)

cheers
Paul
 
Dan Keaton said:
Dear Friends,

We have not addressed the 4K 120 fps mode, but I understand that this is a cached mode (buffered) and the actual output speed that we will see is less than 120 fps during playout.

This, we should be able to handle this mode. But, this is not a promise as we have not fully investigated this mode at this time.

Respectfully,


Dan Keaton
Convergent Design
Click to expand...

Is the play out at 60p still like some of the other modes? Or 30 possibly due to the increased frame rate and data flow?
 
if it's 120 fps, we should be able to do some math to see approximately what the playback of the buffer is (assuming the playback time is representative of the output frame rate...) I'll do a quick test. I was fiddling around with the 4K super slomo right when I got the camera back (obviously it didn't save anything though, since I didn't have an external recorder) but it still does the whole buffer playback screen without a recorder.
 
According to my unscientific testing, it takes about 7.4 seconds for the 120fps 4K buffer to play back. It captures about 3.9-4 seconds of 4K 120fps... so playing back at 60fps would take about 7.8 seconds, right? Sounds like it's probably playing back around 60fps.
 
timmytimetravel said:
Is the play out at 60p still like some of the other modes? Or 30 possibly due to the increased frame rate and data flow?
Click to expand...

Dear TimmyTimeTravel,

I would also like to know how this is played out.

I have not been able to find this in the FS700's specifications.

Respectfully,


Dan Keaton
Convergent Design
 
paulcurtis said:
It's all about the quality difference and we can't say for sure. A 10 bit log encoded 4K stream compressed compared to a 12bit linear uncompressed stream - i suspect i'd be more than happy with the compressed version as the difference probably isn't that great. I may be slightly unusual in that i do vfx work with it, and those compression differences can matter to me.

My uncompressed comment was more about if 4K compressed was going to be difficult to get done within a decent timeframe then uncompressed might be an easier implementation.

Personally: 4K compressed, 10 bit log, would be ideal :)

cheers
Paul
Click to expand...


Dear Paul,

Thank you for your comments.

Respectfully,


Dan Keaton
Convergent Design
 
Hi Dan

Earlier in the thread you mentioned that the 7Q would not be able to do 1080 at any frame rates faster than 60 because the signal the 7Q gets from the FS700 is 4K.

But over the last pages you also stated that the 7Q would be able to record 2K at 120fps.

The above two statements seem contradictory. Can you please clarify when you have a minute?

To answer your question though, for now I would vote option #2, especially since you said option #1 would take you far longer.

But being able to overcrank at 240 or even 120 at a better codec than AVCHD is extremely important.

Thanks
 
chromeboy007 said:
Hi Dan
Earlier in the thread you mentioned that the 7Q would not be able to do 1080 at any frame rates faster than 60 because the signal the 7Q gets from the FS700 is 4K.

But over the last pages you also stated that the 7Q would be able to record 2K at 120fps.

The above two statements seem contradictory. Can you please clarify when you have a minute?
Click to expand...

I believe I can answer your question - Dan correct me if I'm wrong.

An upgraded FS700 can output 3 different signals out the HD-SDI port, which the user selects via a menu.

1) Standard HD
In this setting the camera is outputting a 1080 signal. While the output is technically 10-bit, the actual image is 8-bit in a 10-bit word. The 7Q does not need the paid-for FS700 package to read/record this mode into a compressed DNxHD or "popular codec" file. You can output any of the normal frame rates 24, 25, 29,97, 30, and yes, even 60p.

2) 4K RAW
This signal is what the 7Q is using to create both the compressed 4K AND 10-bit HD versions we are discussing in this thread. CD is downresing the 4K RAW stream to create a 1080 10-bit HD image. (The reason you'd use this mode compared to the Standard HD output above is that this image will be truly 10-bit.) As of this moment the 7Q will not access the 4K 120fps "burst mode" so it won't be able to record anything faster than 60 fps, as the 4K RAW stream only goes up to 60 fps. However, due to licensing with Sony, the 7Q will not be able to record 4K RAW or any 4K image higher than 30 fps. CD can, however, use the 4K RAW signal to make a 60 fps HD recording. In order to use this signal on the 7Q, you must pay for the FS700 Package.

3) 2K
This signal is a "binned" version of the 4K sensor. We've discussed in another thread that this signal shows the same loss of vertical resolution as the 240 fps internal recordings. However, it's in this mode that you can record 240 fps continuously on the 7Q. Setting your camera to this output will allow the 7Q to record up to 240 fps.

So, when Dan says the 1080 10-bit recordings are limited to 60fps, that's because the 7Q is using the 4K signal being output by the camera and that is only 60fps. The 2K at 120 fps is possible because the camera is set to output 2K which can go up to 240 fps.
 
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Thanks Alan.

This is way too complicated... I feel bad for CD as their engineers have to get around licensing agreements and Sony's 2K problems and still want to give us what we want.

I love the design of the CD package with the nice monitor and touch screen and all, compared to Sony's ugly and otherwise functionless LCD bricks.

I would love for CD to release a 'good enough product' ASAP and tweak it with firmwares later. I think once they get real customer feedbacks they can provide better upgrades.
 
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"3) 2K
This signal is a "binned" version of the 4K sensor. We've discussed in another thread that this signal shows the same loss of vertical resolution as the 240 fps internal recordings. However, it's in this mode that you can record 240 fps continuously on the 7Q. Setting your camera to this output will allow the 7Q to record up to 240 fps."

In a previous post Dan Keaton from CD stated:
"The updated FS700 with our Odyssey7Q will be able to record full resolution 2K Raw at 240 fps continuously (which equates to 45 (now 20 minutes because they changed SSD's) minutes using our largest SSD's).
I want to stress the full resolution part, this is not half vertical resolution, no sensor windowing, thus no moire problems."

So what is the correct answer?
 
The correct answer is that the 7Q can only record what the Sony feeds it. And the Sony outputs a binned version when in 2K mode, as near as I can tell. So the Odyssey won't lower the quality in any way, it'll record what it's given, but if the signal is binned from the camera's side, there's nothing the Odyssey can do about it.

Dan can obviously correct me if I'm getting this wrong, but I am certain that the 2K from the raw will show similar artifacts as the onboard compression does. It'll still look better, because it won't have been compressed to H.264, but the underlying image artifacts that are caused by sampling 2K off of a 4K sensor are still going to be there, that's unavoidable. Well, mostly unavoidable, they'd be entirely unavoidable if they'd let us record a windowed 2K, but Sony doesn't allow that, so there's nothing CD can do about that. They can only record what the camera feeds them (and, even then, they're limited to only recording what their licensing agreement with Sony allows them to record).
 
As regards the 2K raw 'problems'. As I see it, the 2K RAW 'problems' are caused by the fact that the resolution of a 2K RAW image once debayered is less than that of a true 1080p image. You'll get more aliasing because the resolution is lower. TBH the 2K RAW you get from an Epic ain't that great either.
 
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