Wait... What? 7Q owners other than FS700? They exist? Well they can just wait behind us!
Odyssey7Q February 2014 Firmware Update
- Thread starter Mitch Gross
- Start date
Wait... What? 7Q owners other than FS700? They exist? Well they can just wait behind us!
greenheron
Well-known member
I just worked on a 2 camera shoot for a commercial that used a Red Epic and a Canon C500/Odyssey 7Q shooting 4K raw. The Dp was concerned that the cameras would match and I assured him that if he shot C-Log and RAW that he would have no problems. After shooting and viewing footage the DP (I was Gaffer and operating 2nd camera, Canon) the DP was amazed at how closely the cameras matched. This was a last minute decision based on using the new firmware that was not available until the very last minute. The rental house and I were very concerned that everything would work, but the workflow with the Canon C500 and Odessey 7Q at 4K Raw seems to be working great. I would say that using the 7Q to light by was a pleasant experience.
So, the Canon C500 users will not be waiting behind the FS700 users. If CD knows what is good for their bottom line they already realize that bad reviews by working professional DP's, Editors, Directors will have more effect on their products acceptance and use in the industry than some disgruntled users in a forum. Myself, I plan to use and rent the Odessey 7Q for use with the Red Epic, Canon C500 and possibly the Sony FS 700 when higher frame rates are supported. The Odessey 7Q has made the Canon C500 a camera that competes well with the Red Epic and both have their strong and weak points. The Red Epic has a global shutter and shoots 5K and the C500 has better low light capabilities and does not need IR correction.
I know most of the users of this forum could care less about the Canon C500, but it has now become a competitive production tool along with the Arri Alexa and Red Epic. These are the only cameras besides an occasional C300 that I ever see used on productions that I work on these days. I admit that on one shoot we did use a Sony FS700 instead of a Phantom, but until CD gets support for the higher frame rates I doubt I will see those camera used much on set.
So, the Canon C500 users will not be waiting behind the FS700 users. If CD knows what is good for their bottom line they already realize that bad reviews by working professional DP's, Editors, Directors will have more effect on their products acceptance and use in the industry than some disgruntled users in a forum. Myself, I plan to use and rent the Odessey 7Q for use with the Red Epic, Canon C500 and possibly the Sony FS 700 when higher frame rates are supported. The Odessey 7Q has made the Canon C500 a camera that competes well with the Red Epic and both have their strong and weak points. The Red Epic has a global shutter and shoots 5K and the C500 has better low light capabilities and does not need IR correction.
I know most of the users of this forum could care less about the Canon C500, but it has now become a competitive production tool along with the Arri Alexa and Red Epic. These are the only cameras besides an occasional C300 that I ever see used on productions that I work on these days. I admit that on one shoot we did use a Sony FS700 instead of a Phantom, but until CD gets support for the higher frame rates I doubt I will see those camera used much on set.
Jim Anderson
Well-known member
Mitch, I already own an F5 with R5 recorder, but clients usually request a back-up recording for safety. It does not have to be larger than 2k or whatever the highest quality output is sent through the HD-SDI port of the F5 at only a medium quality proxy HD file. Will previously released codecs that were available on the NanoFlash (mxf, mpeg etc) be available on the 7Q on future firmware updates?
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As for my comment above, I was only joking. You know... "Haha?"
Thanks for the condescension though. Believe it or not, some of us actually do work on real productions, are professionals, even here in LA and have even shot with the FS700 on those real productions. Yeah, the FS700 is probably down on the list, but even the F55 hasn't taken hold. Does that mean they're bad camera? Absolutely not. I think the FS700 with 7Q compares very favorably against the C500 in that it has about an extra stop of Dynamic Range, not exactly the C500's strong suit.
Mitch Gross
Veteran
The current limitations on PSF, interlace and 720p are temporary. HDMI at 1080p50 or 1080p60 is not.
Before we enable Multi-Stream recording we will have enabled PSF, interlace and 720p. Well before.
timmytimetravel
Well-known member
Well, it still might be worth doing. Initial test of uncompressed hdmi out of Sony A7 to 7Q even with 1080i output set on the A7 is producing a very nice image and seems easy to match with the fs700. FF full sensor read out. Looks like no line skipping, and I am probably mis-interpreting it, but looks like no jaggies that were even aparant in the internal fs700 avchd.
Doesn't appear to be interlaced either (as far as I can tell), and thats going direct into hdmi on 7q. So either some magic is happening somewhere or?? Cuervo, if BMD (they new battery ones look nice) and AJA both downrez, then maybe I should try the atmos one.
Connect H2S - It mentions : Built-in 3:2 and 2:2 Pulldown Removal - 25PsF (50i)>25P • 30PsF (60i) >30P • 24p (3:2-60i) >24P.
So either this is what you mean by downrez, and it remains to be seen if it does it to a 1080p 50/60 signal. In theory it would leave it alone and output 50/60p in sdi. And if the input was 1080i, and it can be seen already 7q doesn't like it, it may convert it in such a way the 7q then would see it as 25p instead of 25psf for instance, and then I could use it to compare cameras in multi-monitor... Guarranteed one day I'll show up to multicam, and someone will want to use a dslr with hdmi out stuck at 50/60 and now it can end up in prores
Anyone got that atmos convertor, something putting out 50/60p hdmi and a 7q?
I of course also did a 4k2hd in the same batch of testing, and damn it looks good. No way I can make another camera costing the same or less match that! Night and day. New camera.
Cuervo
"I wish I could put my finger on why and when my HDMI 2 SDI converters don't work. Sometimes the AJA works and the BMD does not, sometimes visa versa. And, sometimes, the image that comes out looks absolutely horrible, like an SD conversion. Setup via the micro-switches or the interface software solves the problem, sometimes not. Operator error isn't the cause as I've confirmed my expereince with tech support. They seem to work appropriately enough when the signal source is HDMI out of camera, but not when the HDMI source is a video card out of a PC. I have no expereince with the BMD battery powered converters."
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I think I am getting somewhere. There is two flavours of 3g sdi. Level A and Level B.
Blackmagic only does Level B, some companys allow both or let you switch. Annicdotally, aparantly Sony's do Level B as well. Maybe 7Q does not?
Mitch, which ones does the 7Q support automatically, or could be switched now/in the future?
I tried a Sony HXR-NX3 as well ($4k camera) which puts out 1080 50/60p over hdmi only (no sdi). Worked 1080i using a Blackmagic HDMI>SDI (not battery one), and did not work with 1080p. So alphatron is out, Black Magic is out (I could assume the battery one uses the same chipset and supports the same signals (especially since a post by BMD said they originally did A and switched to B.
The only non yumcha one ( http://www.ebay.com/itm/MINI-3G-SDI...E-425M-level-B-to-Level-A-1080p-/290966384423 ) I could find that said it did both, was a hefty roland - ROLAND_VC-1-HS. And the only one that talked around what sounded like the same thing talking about pulldown removal was the Atomos Connect-AC H2S.
Reading the following about Level A vs Level B 3d sdi, does anyone think that is what Atmos is referring to? I still have time to get one shipped tomorrow it time for my shoot if I thought it might work (non-returnable obviously). I'd rather not the roland based on weight. And of course I'd rather neither until I have confirmed from Mitch Level A/B support, but to be fair its Sunday in the US
It continues to be odd that in prores and dpx it takes a 1080i50 as 108025psf, but in multicam fullscreen it will display it, but not in multicam quad. I guess something in the quad split split screen recognises it as PSF instead of true P. And again, maybe the atmos will convert it to true P.
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"Just remember that there are 2 types of 1080p60 over SDI; Level A and Level B. Level A is full frame 1080p59.94 progessive while Level B is two 1080i59.94 signals sent over a single cable recombined on the other end. Blackmagic only supports Level B."
http://forum.blackmagicdesign.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=14282
Not going to change to level A - http://forum.blackmagicdesign.com/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=1416
Atmos Connect Manual -
Pulldown Removal (PDR)
Many video cameras, although recording
internally in 23.98p, 24p, 25p, 29.97p & 30p
output the video signal over SDI or HDMI
in interlaced (psf). The internal recording
format is converted to an interlaced (psf)
format in order to be compatible with more
monitors and displays. This process is called
applying Pulldown (Telecine) to the video
stream. The Connect converter can remove
this Pulldown (reverse Telecine) from the
incoming signal and convert the interlaced
formats back to their original form 23.98p,
24p, 25p, 29.97p and 30p.
When the Connect is in Converter Mode
and locked (Rx) to an interlaced signal
(1080i) that has had Pulldown applied, the
Pulldown (PDR) function can be used
Mitch Gross
Veteran
Currently, the Odyssey7Q can apply a REC709 LUT to an ARRIRAW, C500 RAW and FS700 RAW (in SLOG2 mode) signal.
Mitch Gross
Veteran
No, or at least highly doubtful.
The chip that does this work is no longer manufactured. This is part of the reason the nanoFlash has been discontinued. Convergent Design will eventually include other options for lower bitrate recording on the Odyssey7Q, but these formats are unlikely.
Mitch Gross
Veteran
Both the C500 and the FS700 offer outstanding RAW signal images, which can become quite impressive HD images (in camera by the C500, via 4K2HD with the Odyssey for the FS700). I would agree in general that the C500 is more likely to be seen on a higher end production set, but I also know of a feature in preproduction right now that is switching tfrom C500 to FS700, both into the Odyssey7Q, because the director (and the DP) preferred the look of the Sony. The DP owns the Canon, the Odyssey and initially purchased the FS700 as a high speed camera to go with the others, but decided to move the entire production to the camera. Your mileage may vary.
I think what cracks me up about comparing the FS700 + 7Q to the C500 + 7Q is that the FS700 is $7500 while the C500 is $20,000. That's close to 3x as expensive. You shouldn't really even be comparing two cameras with such a drastic price difference, but people are so I guess the FS700 owners are getting the last laugh and keeping money in the bank. So yeah, maybe the C500 is better but I would certainly hope so since it costs some serious chips.
timmytimetravel
Well-known member
Mitch, do you think I should keep shopping for hdmi>sdi converters and maybe the issues are 3G SDI LevelA/B support in the 7Q from progressive hdmi to sdi source, or does it sound more like the temporary issues you mentioned above with PSF and interlace generally at the root of not accepting a converted signal? (eg stop shopping that might be why it doesn't work) (or are you specifically talking only fixing them in multistream?)
"
"Just remember that there are 2 types of 1080p60 over SDI; Level A and Level B. Level A is full frame 1080p59.94 progessive while Level B is two 1080i59.94 signals sent over a single cable recombined on the other end. Blackmagic only supports Level B."
http://forum.blackmagicdesign.com/vi...hp?f=4&t=14282
I think I am getting somewhere. There is two flavours of 3g sdi. Level A and Level B.
Blackmagic only does Level B, some companys allow both or let you switch. Annicdotally, aparantly Sony's do Level B as well. Maybe 7Q does not?
Mitch, which ones does the 7Q support automatically, or could be switched now/in the future? "
cuervo
Veteran
AHA!!!!
Perhaps too late for you, but, take a look at the Gefen HDMI2SDI converter.
Hi Mitch,
it seems to be Christmas time in Germany ... my personal 7Q is on it's way to me. Short question about matching SSDs: is this device able to handle the matching with CD's ClipMerger? Is it necessary that the docking device might support JBDO to recognize every SSD as a single drive?
it seems to be Christmas time in Germany ... my personal 7Q is on it's way to me. Short question about matching SSDs: is this device able to handle the matching with CD's ClipMerger? Is it necessary that the docking device might support JBDO to recognize every SSD as a single drive?
Clermond
Veteran
download ClipMerger, unpack the zip file and you will find ... surprise.... "ConvergentDesignClipMerger_READ_ME.pdf"
congrats about the the 7Q
Mitch Gross
Veteran
The Odyssey7Q supports Level B.
The support for PSF and interlace will be global throughout the Odyssey7Q, not just for the Multi-Stream functions.
Mitch Gross
Veteran
Straight from our tech support man:
The clip merger is to be used on a directory after it is transferred, and no since every clip is available individually, the "JBOD" or just a bunch of disks" is a method of combining storage when you have mismatched drives, and you wish to create a "sudo" Raid, that does not have increased performance, but simply shows up as "one drive" typically to do this on a system they need to format the disks to match. the formatting, and would destroy the data on the drives. So this would be bad.
For example if I had 3x drives two were 3TB, and one was 2TB, and I wanted to raid these this would result in a 6TB raid (Loosing 1 TB since each drive has to match) doing a JBOD method does not give you redundancy, or performance, it simply results in a 7TB "single mounted drive"
Unless they wish to purchase our SSD's and raid them or "JBOD" them together as their storage medium, which they are more then welcome to do.