Odyssey7Q February 2014 Firmware Update

[Mitch Gross]

So what's the status on LUTs? (not in relation to fs700)

Can I input and record a log signal from say c300 and output and view a LUT?

Not yet, but it is definitely something coming.



This is not particularly directed to this question, but to the participants of this thread in general:

We had a very LONG meeting with the engineers today, most of it spent with me wearing them down with the explanations of the many, many requests made on forums like this, at seminars, in phone calls and emails, and in meetings with various facilities and major clients. There's a HUGE list of things we could do, then there's the list of what we should probably do in what order, and then the realistic projections of how long certain functions might take to implement. Adding custom frame lines is a pretty small task compared to completing the work on Multi-Stream Recording, for instance. But does that mean we do what's the easy stuff first to get more features out to clients, or do we concentrate on what is most important to the largest client base? Or potential client base? These are not easy questions or answers. As vocal as members of forums such as this are, while a very important part of our client base you are not the only ones. If we have, say, a major production facility poised to purchase a large number of units but only if they have a certain feature, then we need to weigh that as well.

All of this goes to say that we have a lot of irons in the fire, a huge list of tasks we plan to accomplish, and we are constantly evaluating the order in which we attack them. Understand that this is not a monolithic endeavor. Our engineers often split tasks off to individuals or small groups so that many projects can happen simultaneously. Once completed, each task goes through a bug hunt testing phase. We really don't know the order some of these functions will be completed because they are worked on concurrently and we don't know what problems will crop up until they do. Programming like this is often a large part R&D as well.

Here's an example: It always bugged me that if there was a monitor hooked up downstream of the Odyssey7Q I couldn't use any of the image analysis tools like Focus Assist or the Waveform because it would show up on the other monitors as well. I asked if this could be fixed but the engineers misunderstood and removed it entirely from the monitor outputs, which would piss off any DIT who WANTED the display on a big monitor. So I explained that an on/off control would be ideal and the engineers agreed but didn't think they would be able to tear open that part of the code again for this release. I was dreading the fury of the userbase to discover this function had been temporarilly lostt in this firmware, but then I learned about one day before we released the new firmware that the control did in fact make it in (It's under
[*] --> [OUTPUTS] --> [MONITORING]). Seems someone had a chance to squeeze it in and make sure it didn't break anything. Of course I wanted them to change the name of the function from MONITORING to OVERLAYS, but really I was just glad it's there. And the name change will be in the first patch, already programmed.

I'm sure we are going to learn a lot more from the conversations we have during NAB. And we will constantly be looking at priorities and listening to suggestions. Many of the ideas we discussed today originated with clients, including a number from this forum.

 

[Mitch Gross]

Mitch, sorry if this has been covered before. Does/will the 7q take 1080 50/60p on the hdmi input?

If it's the same as the rx10 bionz setup it's full sensor read at full frame, so comes out very nice. Swappable emount glass makes it a nice Bcam (with a dc coupler (tiny batteries)

i have an event in a week and I want to use uncompressed out from a sonya7 to get around 29min internal recording limitations. When I switch from 1080i (can record on 7q) to 1080p in a7 menu I get nothing. If I plug it into a tv that shows signal it's detected as 1080p and shown and shows 1080i signal when I switch.

i assume there will be a bunch of prosumer cameras at nab outputting clean 1080p60 over hdmi. Can the 7q record this

The Odyssey7Q cannot accept 1080p50 or 1080p60 over HDMI. It is a hardware limitation.

It can accept thaose signals via SDI, so you could purchase a small converter box, stick it to the back of the Odyssey7Q, power them off the same battery and record the signal that way. Note that at these framerates we currently only support DPX recording.

 

[Pgale]

Thanks for the info Mitch. How many engineers do you have at CD? Sounds like you need even more and that there's a significant amount of work that might take quite some time to get to. Are you confident you'll get all the promised features done and in a reasonable amount of time I.e. Not more than a year?

 

[cuervo]

The Odyssey7Q cannot accept 1080p50 or 1080p60 over HDMI. It is a hardware limitation.

It can accept thaose signals via SDI, so you could purchase a small converter box, stick it to the back of the Odyssey7Q, power them off the same battery and record the signal that way. Note that at these framerates we currently only support DPX recording.

Just as an FYI....these HDMI 2 SDI converter boxes are odd beasts. They don't accept universal HDMI signals, and when they do, they seem to downrez the signal ( BMD and AJA tested). All in all, a fairly problemmatic solution. The whole point of my mentioning this is to suggest that anyone with this solution in mind, should test the signal path before purchasing, if they can.

 

[morgan_moore]

Here's an example: It always bugged that..

Maybe your development focus and direction can be lead by making various 'modes of operation' work fully. Concentrate on responsibilites in the chain of shooting.

Paint 'modes of operation' in your heads and the priorities should fall in to place.

for example

'solo shooter mode' (here the mon is at the ops eye)

Probably wants a speedy toggle, the modes (?)
-clean
-focus mag
-checks (WFM sound level, data remaining etc)

Shooter with director mode.
Maybe the mon is on the rear of the cam and the op is on a smaller mon or an EVF.
Op needs..
clean, checks, focus - on the 3rparty monitor/evf
the director needs, clean (with Lut)

shooter with A/c mode. Shooter,EVF, A/C monitor.
Shooter wants clean
A/c needs checks/mag/clean
(village may want clean)


Roll out the modes of operation. The trouble with engineers is that they wont 'get' these.

a side note on crop marks. village and director need black wall, op needs to see the overage to spot the boom/lights

S

 

[Gene Sung]

There's a HUGE list of things we could do, then there's the list of what we should probably do in what order, and then the realistic projections of how long certain functions might take to implement.

Thanks Mitch for your perspective. Seems like the features that most people want / useful are 4K2HD up to 60fps and some type of 4K 4:2:2 10-bit. I'm really hoping this comes pretty soon, and not in 4 months or something like that.

As for patches, the only glaring issue is the playback on the 7Q can mess up, but overall I think it's much more stable / functional with the last update.

 

[Pgale]

Thanks Mitch for your perspective. Seems like the features that most people want / useful are 4K2HD up to 60fps and some type of 4K 4:2:2 10-bit. I'm really hoping this comes pretty soon, and not in 4 months or something like that.

As for patches, the only glaring issue is the playback on the 7Q can mess up, but overall I think it's much more stable / functional with the last update.

And the mess up of multi stream so quad view doesn't now work properly. That's a big one to fix but they already have that high on the list I think.

 

[Gene Sung]

Thanks Mitch for your perspective. Seems like the features that most people want / useful are 4K2HD up to 60fps and some type of 4K 4:2:2 10-bit. I'm really hoping this comes pretty soon, and not in 4 months or something like that.

As for patches, the only glaring issue is the playback on the 7Q can mess up, but overall I think it's much more stable / functional with the last update.

How can I forget since I made such a big stink, but the red color issue with the S-Log profile needs some work, but the old BMD settings seem to do the trick for now. But would be nice to get official CD approved workflow.

I've been doing this little art project the last few days. Lots of 7Q shooting at 4K and various frame rates and it's running really well and solid; aside from the playback and red issue.

 

[timmytimetravel]

The Odyssey7Q cannot accept 1080p50 or 1080p60 over HDMI. It is a hardware limitation.

It can accept thaose signals via SDI, so you could purchase a small converter box, stick it to the back of the Odyssey7Q, power them off the same battery and record the signal that way. Note that at these framerates we currently only support DPX recording.

Mitch, I'm not sure that it going to work. As Cuervo mentioned it might be a bit hit and miss. I just tried it using my Alphatron evf which does hdmi<>sdi cross conversion.

Works fine with 1080i but still not 1080p. Aside from the Sony A7, just cross checked it using fs700 hdmi out > alphatron hdmi in > alphatron sdi out > SDA A in, on 7q.

The 1080i50 incoming sdi signal is fine. Even 1080p25 is fine. 1080p50 doesn't show up on the 7q sdi input and neither does 1080i50 from fs700 being cross converted. If I go straight from fs700 sdi to 7q sdi. No problems.

The only clue I have is that if I set the fs700 hdmi "video out" output to 1080i. A 1080p50 framerate OR a 1080p25 framerate, show up crossconverted as 1080 25psf.

Rechecking what the 7q is detecting from the A7 when I set 1080i output. Same thing. 1080 25 psf.

For this particular shoot I am only after 25p didn't really need 50p, just didn't want to go interlaced and the camera ouput hdmi on A7 is 1080i or 1080p only (and appears from how other monitors detect it (including alphatron) to be fixed at 50i or 50p depending on what you set there).

From a initial side reading I understand 25psf and 50i are not exactly the same thing, and people getting expensvive hardware cross converters to make them look the same vs doing it in software.

So for Mitch, would you expect the 7q to accept a cross converted sdi signal where the source was 50i or 50p? Or is there some limitation or coding in the detection which is seeing it as a 50 frame hdmi originated flavour?

For anyone else, any experiences using cross conversion (either sdi<>hdmi) or simply mixing two cameras where you shoot 25p on one and 25psf (which may be originally 50i) on the other? Are they going to mix seemlessly?

 

[timmytimetravel]

And from memory there is no multistream yet to use the 7q to balance/check two cameras?

I guess in the future you could end up with a in 7q recording lut something like : F3 > Fs700 or FS700 > F55. To get them matched for quick turnaround vs in post. Exciting...!

 

[Mitch Gross]

Thanks for the info Mitch. How many engineers do you have at CD? Sounds like you need even more and that there's a significant amount of work that might take quite some time to get to. Are you confident you'll get all the promised features done and in a reasonable amount of time I.e. Not more than a year?

We're actually hiring more and more engineers at a steady rate. CD is an expanding company.

And yes, we'll get things done in a reasonable time. But there will be more features than have been announced, so you wouldn't want us to stop, would you?

 

[Mitch Gross]

Maybe your development focus and direction can be lead by making various 'modes of operation' work fully. Concentrate on responsibilites in the chain of shooting.

Paint 'modes of operation' in your heads and the priorities should fall in to place.

for example

'solo shooter mode' (here the mon is at the ops eye)

Probably wants a speedy toggle, the modes (?)
-clean
-focus mag
-checks (WFM sound level, data remaining etc)

Shooter with director mode.
Maybe the mon is on the rear of the cam and the op is on a smaller mon or an EVF.
Op needs..
clean, checks, focus - on the 3rparty monitor/evf
the director needs, clean (with Lut)

shooter with A/c mode. Shooter,EVF, A/C monitor.
Shooter wants clean
A/c needs checks/mag/clean
(village may want clean)


Roll out the modes of operation. The trouble with engineers is that they wont 'get' these.

a side note on crop marks. village and director need black wall, op needs to see the overage to spot the boom/lights

S

Thanks for the input.

Please note that all of your input comes from a "shooter" perspective. "Shooters" are not our only clients. We talk to all our clients and we have to take into account all of their needs while balancing the scale of clientele they represent. BTW, I have been a cinematographer for 25 years, with experience as a one man band, new hound, field doc guy, music video "shooter", corporate cameraman, and Director of Photography of more than two dozen feature films. I have been involved in many types of productions on a great range of scales and I do believe I have an appreciation of the needs for the different types of clients.

If Convergent Design was really just a bunch of engineers then a product like the Odyssey7Q wouldn't even exist.

 

[Mitch Gross]

Thanks Mitch for your perspective. Seems like the features that most people want / useful are 4K2HD up to 60fps and some type of 4K 4:2:2 10-bit. I'm really hoping this comes pretty soon, and not in 4 months or something like that.

As for patches, the only glaring issue is the playback on the 7Q can mess up, but overall I think it's much more stable / functional with the last update.

I would say that's fairly accurate -- for the people who populate this particular forum thread. I don't think the Canon C500 owners would particularly agree, and there are a lot of other Odyssey7Q owners.

 

[Mitch Gross]

And the mess up of multi stream so quad view doesn't now work properly. That's a big one to fix but they already have that high on the list I think.

Yes, that's a big priority.

 

[Mitch Gross]

Mitch, I'm not sure that it going to work. As Cuervo mentioned it might be a bit hit and miss. I just tried it using my Alphatron evf which does hdmi<>sdi cross conversion.

Works fine with 1080i but still not 1080p. Aside from the Sony A7, just cross checked it using fs700 hdmi out > alphatron hdmi in > alphatron sdi out > SDA A in, on 7q.

The 1080i50 incoming sdi signal is fine. Even 1080p25 is fine. 1080p50 doesn't show up on the 7q sdi input and neither does 1080i50 from fs700 being cross converted. If I go straight from fs700 sdi to 7q sdi. No problems.

The only clue I have is that if I set the fs700 hdmi "video out" output to 1080i. A 1080p50 framerate OR a 1080p25 framerate, show up crossconverted as 1080 25psf.

Rechecking what the 7q is detecting from the A7 when I set 1080i output. Same thing. 1080 25 psf.

For this particular shoot I am only after 25p didn't really need 50p, just didn't want to go interlaced and the camera ouput hdmi on A7 is 1080i or 1080p only (and appears from how other monitors detect it (including alphatron) to be fixed at 50i or 50p depending on what you set there).

From a initial side reading I understand 25psf and 50i are not exactly the same thing, and people getting expensvive hardware cross converters to make them look the same vs doing it in software.

So for Mitch, would you expect the 7q to accept a cross converted sdi signal where the source was 50i or 50p? Or is there some limitation or coding in the detection which is seeing it as a 50 frame hdmi originated flavour?

For anyone else, any experiences using cross conversion (either sdi<>hdmi) or simply mixing two cameras where you shoot 25p on one and 25psf (which may be originally 50i) on the other? Are they going to mix seemlessly?

Currently the Odyssey7Q does not accept interlace signals.

Otherwise, you need to check the specs of any HDMI device. There are different generations of HDMI, such as HDMI 1.4a and HDMI 2.0. I believe the Alphatron does not translate certain signals just like Odyssey does not accept certain signals. Some monitors won't accept them either, and I'm sure that some converters won't either. Luckily these devices have spec sheets so you can check exactly what they can and cannot handle.

 

[Mitch Gross]

And from memory there is no multistream yet to use the 7q to balance/check two cameras?

I guess in the future you could end up with a in 7q recording lut something like : F3 > Fs700 or FS700 > F55. To get them matched for quick turnaround vs in post. Exciting...!

Multi-Stream monitoring works, but only on true progressive signals, not PSF or interlace. And it only works for HD inputted signals, not RAW or RAW converting to a video format. And there's no "yet" with that -- there is not enough room in the central processor to do that.

 

[timmytimetravel]

Currently the Odyssey7Q does not accept interlace signals.

Otherwise, you need to check the specs of any HDMI device. There are different generations of HDMI, such as HDMI 1.4a and HDMI 2.0. I believe the Alphatron does not translate certain signals just like Odyssey does not accept certain signals. Some monitors won't accept them either, and I'm sure that some converters won't either. Luckily these devices have spec sheets so you can check exactly what they can and cannot handle.

"Multi-Stream monitoring works, but only on true progressive signals, not PSF or interlace. And it only works for HD inputted signals, not RAW or RAW converting to a video format"

Thanks Mitch. I just tried a d600 ff which outputs hdmi 1080i as well or 720p. Straight hdmi, 1080i detected as 1080psf25.

In multistream with both cameras, got the flickering with monitoring. Using 1080i out of the A7 converted to SDI, I could actually see it on B source, but when I went to quad view, it flickered. So close, yet not able to compare.

Setting the d600 to 720p and converting to sdi, I could actually get the multicam monitoring working with no flicker.

So in summary if I have it right :

No hdmi in at 50/60, hardware limitation.

FS700 ouputted hdmi signal cross converted to sdi can come in at 1080i50 or 1080p25/30 and seems to be reported as PSF, but not 50p/60p original source.
Cross conversion of signals to sdi in on 7q will only work if the source is progressive (since the alphatron's converted output seems to be detected on a tv as 50/60p

These middle two above would have to be confirmed either with a 2nd sdi monitor that can take 1080 50/60p showing the alphatron is converting them correctly, or someone trying to convert say their fs700 hdmi output to sdi, and using a different converter see if 7q likes it better.

7q can take a interlaced signal in multistream probably for recording, but cannot take the signal quad screen. It tends to read them as PSF.
A progressive sourced signal hdmi converted to sdi will work fine on multistream

Please correct any assumptions here before I move on if you could.

It seems like if the A7 or other cameras in the future could output say 25/30p uncompressed they would be useable on 7q via hdmi (instead of fixed 50/60p). Or if there was a 7q hdmi2.0 hardware upgrade path in the future it would work. Or in the case of the A7 if it could change output to say 720p, it would be fine on hdmi or crossconverted sdi, i'd just be forced to drop the other cams to 720p.

I guess I'll do some tests to see if 1080psf25 mixes well with 1080p25.

cheers

 

[morgan_moore]

Please note that all of your input comes from a "shooter" perspective. "Shooters" are not our only clients.

I refereed to 'modes of operation' and then suggested some 'modes of operation' suited to 'shooters', I suggest the same approach of developing fully functional 'modes of operation' would work for your other clients need.

 

[timmytimetravel]

Just as an FYI....these HDMI 2 SDI converter boxes are odd beasts. They don't accept universal HDMI signals, and when they do, they seem to downrez the signal ( BMD and AJA tested). All in all, a fairly problemmatic solution. The whole point of my mentioning this is to suggest that anyone with this solution in mind, should test the signal path before purchasing, if they can.

Well, it still might be worth doing. Initial test of uncompressed hdmi out of Sony A7 to 7Q even with 1080i output set on the A7 is producing a very nice image and seems easy to match with the fs700. FF full sensor read out. Looks like no line skipping, and I am probably mis-interpreting it, but looks like no jaggies that were even aparant in the internal fs700 avchd.

Doesn't appear to be interlaced either (as far as I can tell), and thats going direct into hdmi on 7q. So either some magic is happening somewhere or?? Cuervo, if BMD (they new battery ones look nice) and AJA both downrez, then maybe I should try the atmos one.

Connect H2S - It mentions : Built-in 3:2 and 2:2 Pulldown Removal - 25PsF (50i)>25P • 30PsF (60i) >30P • 24p (3:2-60i) >24P.

So either this is what you mean by downrez, and it remains to be seen if it does it to a 1080p 50/60 signal. In theory it would leave it alone and output 50/60p in sdi. And if the input was 1080i, and it can be seen already 7q doesn't like it, it may convert it in such a way the 7q then would see it as 25p instead of 25psf for instance, and then I could use it to compare cameras in multi-monitor... Guarranteed one day I'll show up to multicam, and someone will want to use a dslr with hdmi out stuck at 50/60 and now it can end up in prores

Anyone got that atmos convertor, something putting out 50/60p hdmi and a 7q?

I of course also did a 4k2hd in the same batch of testing, and damn it looks good. No way I can make another camera costing the same or less match that! Night and day. New camera.

 

[cuervo]

I wish I could put my finger on why and when my HDMI 2 SDI converters don't work. Sometimes the AJA works and the BMD does not, sometimes visa versa. And, sometimes, the image that comes out looks absolutely horrible, like an SD conversion. Setup via the micro-switches or the interface software solves the problem, sometimes not. Operator error isn't the cause as I've confirmed my expereince with tech support. They seem to work appropriately enough when the signal source is HDMI out of camera, but not when the HDMI source is a video card out of a PC. I have no expereince with the BMD battery powered converters.