That's exactly what I figured and why I started out just shooting in auto. Thought that it would be a safe start. The images are just not as clear and sharp as I would expect from a $3500 HD camera. The image is "grainy" for lack of a better term. Am I being picky? Probably. It's not totally unwatchable, however, a friend of mine shoots with a Sony, older HD can't remember the model. I looked at a short video shot in the same conditions with astounding clarity. What's worse is that this sample I saw was rendered in WMV!!!! At a rate of 3000kbps and even compressed in that format looks better than my raw footage. I mean come on! I understand the level of control on this camera is amazing and can probably be adjusted. I just would've thought that even in much less than optimum conditions it would be able to compensate to maintain a sharp, clean, clear image. If I were simply shooting in a house with regular lights on in the evening I might see this but, not in the conditions I've shot in lately. I'll keep trying to see what I can figure out from all the suggestions here. Anything you have would help.
Noise? Really?
- Thread starter shootit
- Start date
Shootit. Did you try the reset? And if so, did you try some test footage since?
And for what it's worth, I shoot almost entirely with cine-d and a master ped at -5 for NO noise in the blacks and a flat image with quite a large dynamic range.
I prefer this for more options in post.
I did have issues with noise in December but I did the menu reset and it fixed it.
That and ABB'ing every time the power has been turned back on and lowering the ped a bit makes for pretty nice low noise pics.
A simple way to figure out where to set you ped for lower noise is to close your iris then turn on you WFM. ABB the camera then lower ped till that line on the WFM looks pretty much noise free.
Barry has an HMC150 book. So don't order the HVX200 book unless you own one. Order the HMC150 version.
Be willing to learn, be willing to teach. But bitching out people for not knowing things is useless. As is bitching about being told things. Everyone step back and say "AHHMMM" or something.
And for what it's worth, I shoot almost entirely with cine-d and a master ped at -5 for NO noise in the blacks and a flat image with quite a large dynamic range.
I prefer this for more options in post.
I did have issues with noise in December but I did the menu reset and it fixed it.
That and ABB'ing every time the power has been turned back on and lowering the ped a bit makes for pretty nice low noise pics.
A simple way to figure out where to set you ped for lower noise is to close your iris then turn on you WFM. ABB the camera then lower ped till that line on the WFM looks pretty much noise free.
Barry has an HMC150 book. So don't order the HVX200 book unless you own one. Order the HMC150 version.
Be willing to learn, be willing to teach. But bitching out people for not knowing things is useless. As is bitching about being told things. Everyone step back and say "AHHMMM" or something.
Mike Harvey
Veteran
Another question... what are you watching the footage on? That can make a huge difference.
No I will do the reset tomorrow and run some test footage. Thanks for the info. Some of it I'm not sure I understand totally but I'll figure it out and thereby learn. I love all the knowledge on here. I can't wait to get the HMC150 book. Thanks for the help.Shootit. Did you try the reset? And if so, did you try some test footage since?
And for what it's worth, I shoot almost entirely with cine-d and a master ped at -5 for NO noise in the blacks and a flat image with quite a large dynamic range.
I prefer this for more options in post.
I did have issues with noise in December but I did the menu reset and it fixed it.
That and ABB'ing every time the power has been turned back on and lowering the ped a bit makes for pretty nice low noise pics.
A simple way to figure out where to set you ped for lower noise is to close your iris then turn on you WFM. ABB the camera then lower ped till that line on the WFM looks pretty much noise free.
Barry has an HMC150 book. So don't order the HVX200 book unless you own one. Order the HMC150 version.
Be willing to learn, be willing to teach. But bitching out people for not knowing things is useless. As is bitching about being told things. Everyone step back and say "AHHMMM" or something.
The footage is reviewed on my Samsung 24" monitor. No I haven't looked at it on my HDTV. I don't believe that is the issue. If you look at my previous post you'll see a comment about a comparison I made on that same monitor between my friends footage he sent me as a WMV file. If that looks better than raw HD footage on that monitor then I'm gonna rule out the monitor as the issue. Maybe I'm wrong on that but that's the way I view it. If I'm wrong let me know.
Mike Harvey
Veteran
mcsmooth
Well-known member
That's not a good comparison for noise at all... a highly compressed bitrate like that will actually smoothen out noise (try it on your footage). It also could be edited. You really need to compare original footage of the same scene to have a fair comparison.
If your lighting isn't good and/or you are using gain, you will get noise (on any cam). As people are saying, get to know all the settings and when to use them.
It's easy to get hung up on tiny details when editing frame by frame on a standard monitor and you see it is not as clear as, say, a still camera shot. Also, I've seen that some media players and editing software don't even play the footage back at full quality. Do try viewing your footage on an HDTV through HDMI though, if it doesn't look good there, you are doing something wrong.
Interface
Active member
Shootit, just don't worry, chances that your camera is defective or broken are minimal, but if it is, you'll return it and get a new one. OK, if it is not broken, and I strongly believe it is not, you will learn few basic things about controlling it's features and getting the great results.
When I first got my HMC and fired few shots out of the box I was disappointed especially when compared it to Sony HDV that I was used to.
Now, I do professional work with HMC, TV commercials, music videos, docs, even indie feature film, people come asking, wow, what camera were you shooting with, amazing image etc.
I would not change it for a truck load of Sony cams in this range.
And now, for the technical part>
Manual mode is a must. You might sometimes get good results with auto mode, but that is totally unpredictable and uncontrollable as with any camera intended for professional use.
Use only OIS - stabilization that works great. Use Auto Iris and Auto Focus to assist you, get approximate iris and switch it to manual. Don't boost gain. Leave it at 0. Things like gain boost are not intended to improve your image quality in normal conditions, you should use it only when it is absolutely necessary.
There is a good way to get rid of the noise, by using HMC's WFM. Close iris all the way, turn on WFM and then lower your Pedestal setting until you get nice solid line in the bottom with no jumpy dots. I set mine as low as -14 in low light conditions. That lowers the noise in shadows by extending the black level. Also raise Detail coring a tad.
A good white balance is essential. I am sorry if I'm wrong but I got an impression that you are not doing it right: Put your white surface where your subject will be, set to WB switch to A or B, and then press the AWB button just once, don't hold it and leave the camera steady for few seconds until balancing is done. I also do Black balance all the time.
Experiment with settings, and do a lot of test shooting and watching over and over, until you are satisfied. Very soon, you will develop a certain intuition for each environment and be able quickly correct camera settings.
It would be best if you attach a frame or two of your footage, you'll get some good answers quickly, I am sure.
When I first got my HMC and fired few shots out of the box I was disappointed especially when compared it to Sony HDV that I was used to.
Now, I do professional work with HMC, TV commercials, music videos, docs, even indie feature film, people come asking, wow, what camera were you shooting with, amazing image etc.
I would not change it for a truck load of Sony cams in this range.
And now, for the technical part>
Manual mode is a must. You might sometimes get good results with auto mode, but that is totally unpredictable and uncontrollable as with any camera intended for professional use.
Use only OIS - stabilization that works great. Use Auto Iris and Auto Focus to assist you, get approximate iris and switch it to manual. Don't boost gain. Leave it at 0. Things like gain boost are not intended to improve your image quality in normal conditions, you should use it only when it is absolutely necessary.
There is a good way to get rid of the noise, by using HMC's WFM. Close iris all the way, turn on WFM and then lower your Pedestal setting until you get nice solid line in the bottom with no jumpy dots. I set mine as low as -14 in low light conditions. That lowers the noise in shadows by extending the black level. Also raise Detail coring a tad.
A good white balance is essential. I am sorry if I'm wrong but I got an impression that you are not doing it right: Put your white surface where your subject will be, set to WB switch to A or B, and then press the AWB button just once, don't hold it and leave the camera steady for few seconds until balancing is done. I also do Black balance all the time.
Experiment with settings, and do a lot of test shooting and watching over and over, until you are satisfied. Very soon, you will develop a certain intuition for each environment and be able quickly correct camera settings.
It would be best if you attach a frame or two of your footage, you'll get some good answers quickly, I am sure.
Last edited:
I have two Samsung monitors. One of them shows significant noise from HMC footage that is not present on the other Samsung monitor OR my two Apple monitors. That's not to say it's the monitor that is the cause of the problem, but it's a data point worth noting.
That same 'noisy' monitor can look awesome with CGI footage from (say) After Effects or Motion. So, while it may not help you find a problem with the camera, don't discount the monitor completely.
Just a quick thought, what recording mode are you filming in? I used to have an hmc151 and only ever used the PH 1920x1080 or 720p 21 Mbps mode.
And are you shooting Interlace or Progressive?
Watch if you use the DRS function it will make the video more noisy but will help prevent blown highlights.
If you use say HE mode to save card space it uses 1440x1280 at 6Mbps and would look worse.
The sweetspot for the 150 though is 720p as the camera does not have full native HD chips,but if you look back through this forum Barry and others have given great
examples of what mode is best for what.
I like a lot of others found that we got our best results with playing with the scene files and tweaking them to our own tastes. A lot of people swear by Barry green's books
...shame we dont get them over here in the UK grrrrr lol.
Can you tell us what recording mode you use as it may help
And are you shooting Interlace or Progressive?
Watch if you use the DRS function it will make the video more noisy but will help prevent blown highlights.
If you use say HE mode to save card space it uses 1440x1280 at 6Mbps and would look worse.
The sweetspot for the 150 though is 720p as the camera does not have full native HD chips,but if you look back through this forum Barry and others have given great
examples of what mode is best for what.
I like a lot of others found that we got our best results with playing with the scene files and tweaking them to our own tastes. A lot of people swear by Barry green's books
...shame we dont get them over here in the UK grrrrr lol.
Can you tell us what recording mode you use as it may help
Last edited:
Wow. A lot to answer this morning. I will hook it up to the TV today and look at it. Am I using gain? I do not believe so. Everywhere on the camera that gain can be adjusted I've run it down to 0. That's what has me so perplexed. As for comparing my footage to the WMV file I'm going to politely disagree with you. I've created more WMV and other similar files than I care to count...easily in the 10,000's and in no way can that improve the quality of the video. Again, just politely disagreeing. That's something that I probably have more time and experience with than most. Lastly, I'd say my lighting is more than adequate. Even in a studio with a lot of windows allowing direct sunlight is superceeded by the lighting when it's on. A crude description but that should give you the idea. Anyway, good stuff. Thank you.
I agree that the camera is probably fine. Some of the things you've said I'm anxious to try. Now are you using a scene file? One thing I can say that I didn't before is that the noise seems to be most prevalent on vibrant darker colors and particularly the skin of the people. On a pan shot going from the floor up, a female subject's legs had amazing noise while her dress which was a light "sky blue" color was very sharp. When I got higher in the shot and had her arms in view, again the skin tones were "grainy". In another shot with a vibrant red backdrop the wall was very noisy while a golden brown tapestry was very sharp. Maybe that's what has me confused is that many times the noise is not the whole image but parts of it and often times the parts I find the noise least acceptable...grrrrr. Hope that helps.
I believe all of you in that there are some settings that I need to adjust. I am and will always be perplexed about this though. I mean noise/grainy video is probably the most undesirable thing you could have from a camera that is supposed to be all about the highest video quality. To not be able to still get a stellar image from a camera with a simple white balance and sufficinent lighting in auto mode is just shocking to me. Granted I have only a few hours of use on the camera and have full intentions of gaining a complete understanding of it and how to get the most out of it, I was still astounded that it had so much "bias" in auto mode and wanted to address this right away as I thought there was an issue with the camera but you all have me convinced this one's just gonna require a lot more of my attention right from the early going.
Just a quick thought, what recording mode are you filming in? I used to have an hmc151 and only ever used the PH 1920x1080 or 720p 21 Mbps mode.
And are you shooting Interlace or Progressive?
Watch if you use the DRS function it will make the video more noisy but will help prevent blown highlights.
If you use say HE mode to save card space it uses 1440x1280 at 6Mbps and would look worse.
The sweetspot for the 150 though is 720p as the camera does not have full native HD chips,but if you look back through this forum Barry and others have given great
examples of what mode is best for what.
I like a lot of others found that we got our best results with playing with the scene files and tweaking them to our own tastes. A lot of people swear by Barry green's books
...shame we dont get them over here in the UK grrrrr lol.
Can you tell us what recording mode you use as it may help
Have been bouncing between 1080 30p and 720 30p. I'm guessing the scene file feature is probably going to need to come into play based on all that I've heard here. Thanks.
He never said improve the video quality, he said smooth out the noise.
One of the methods higher compression formats like WMV9, WVC1 achieve compression is by dropping information. Fine grain and noise are often smoothed over. Noise and grain are costly to encode and require a higher bitrate. Many encoders pre-process with denoising filters beforehand
back 2 months ago when i first got my hmc150, i first tested it out using all auto mode. i was also shock to see very noisy footage. i then decided i needed to learn how to use this cam correctly and also bought barry green's book. needless to say, i achieve great results thereafter in manual mode, and from what the book recommends, and also from the wealth of info here.
shootit, i believe you have a better grasp of video than i did when i first got the cam so i'm sure you'll get better results soon. just what others said you really need to understand how to go about manual mode. i also heavily use barry green's scene files.
fyi: i also have a small canon hf100 and putting that in auto mode looks better than the hmc150 in auto mode but once you do manual on the hmc150 it blows it out of the water.
shootit, i believe you have a better grasp of video than i did when i first got the cam so i'm sure you'll get better results soon. just what others said you really need to understand how to go about manual mode. i also heavily use barry green's scene files.
fyi: i also have a small canon hf100 and putting that in auto mode looks better than the hmc150 in auto mode but once you do manual on the hmc150 it blows it out of the water.
Mike Harvey
Veteran
Barry no longer believes that to be true and prefers 1080p on this camera now.
Shootit, you post about noise in blacks and noise in skin was almost identical to my problem in December. Menu reset fixed this. I have not had the problem since.
Get back to us once you have done the reset, etc. Can't trouble shoot any further till you have tried a few things first.
Get back to us once you have done the reset, etc. Can't trouble shoot any further till you have tried a few things first.
Thanks guys, all this is awesome. I will have to wait until Sunday to attempt all of this. I guess I was simply caught off guard with how sensitive this camera is. I do have a question that kind of goes off course a little but since I have the attention of some in here I'll ask it. For those of you using CS4, how the hell do you do a frame grab? I mean I was so used to it when I first used it I simply hit ctrl+shift+M and waited....nothing. I mean I've done it so many times it never occurred to me that it wouldn't work. When I try to it in Media encoder I can't isolate one frame, nor can I simply do it while scrubbing a sequence. LOL....what gives. If Adobe took that super fast function away, then they really dropped the ball. Just curious if anyone knows because it's driving me nuts!