Noise? Really?

S

shootit

Member
Well first let me say I'm a newb at this camera. Up until now I've used a Sony VX-2000. I've been shooting in auto mode and nearly everything has been an indoor set shoot. Now, my meager understanding of noise is that it's usually in a low light situation that is below the camera's sensitivity. I'm using 2000 watts of light in a room that is approx 13 x 12 so you can imagine that the light is more than adequate. If it's not then please educate me but I never had an issue with the vx-2000 in the same conditions. That being said, I'm shocked at the amount of noise. Shooting in an auto mode with a white and black balance having been performed, the noise is astounding. Let me qualify my remarks in saying that I mean astounding relative to what I've seen from others using the same camera. Obviously I'm doing something wrong or there is a setting that is wrong on this camera. Can anyone help me? I've read the manual front to back. Honestly it really isn't very helpful. Any help would be appreciated.
Thanks
 
Try doing a full reset. The HMC150 is a very low noise camera; it's not noise-free but noise should definitely not be an issue in proper shooting circumstances.
 
Thanks Barry for the quick reply. Menu reset? This resets the entire camera? Two questions. One, if I've not really messed with the camera why on earth would it need a reset? Not doubting you as I'm sure you've forgotten more about this camera than I will know, just curious to me. Two, how does one go about doing it?
 
ABB (Black Balance) the camera after every power on. (Hold the white balance button in the front down till you see "ABB" in the lcd and the screen goes black.)

HMC150 likes you to ABB after the power has been turned back on.

Also, using full auto is just not advisable on any camera.
 
Denwa said:
ABB (Black Balance) the camera after every power on. (Hold the white balance button in the front down till you see "ABB" in the lcd and the screen goes black.)

HMC150 likes you to ABB after the power has been turned back on.

Also, using full auto is just not advisable on any camera.
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Not trying to be antagonistic but if auto is not usable why is it there? I really do not see the point of it if that is the case. Actually when out of auto mode what all functions require my input? I've not used it that much yet so I'm just curious if you know. Maybe you're right I don't know. Thanks. Oh and I have done a black balance each time as well as white. They're done in the same action anyway right? I just push the button for the white and keep holding it and it goes directly into the black balance. Or am I doing it wrong?
 
Full Auto also means auto gain, which could be why your footage looks noisy. You could shut off gain in the "AUTO SW" menu.

On the other hand it could just be as Barry has said. This has occurred on occasion for some people.. System reset. Yes, the menu reset resets the entire camera.

I had a noise issue and did the menu reset then stuck to ABB after every power on. I also lowered the pedestal a tad.

BTW, what scene file are you using?
 
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My standard for flat video (more info for post prod CC) is:

Detail Level: -3
V Detail Level: 0
Detail Coring: +3
0's on the rest till you get to:

Master Ped: -5
A. Iris level: -2 (optional, I like auto iris to come in bit darker)
DRS: off
GAMMA: Cine-Like D

If you want it less flat then use the same but master ped at -6 and gamma at cine-like V.
 
Denwa said:
Full Auto also means auto gain, which could be why your footage looks noisy.

On the other hand it could just be as Barry has said. This has occurred on occasion for some people.. System reset. Yes, the menu reset resets the entire camera.

I had a noise issue and sis the menu reset then stuck to ABB after every power on. I also lowered the pedestal a tad.

BTW, what scene file are you using?
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Just used scene file 1. Okay, now we're gonna get into my stupidity here. Auto means auto gain.....check. So if that's the case and assuming that the light I'm using is suitable which I believe it is, then why would the camera add gain? I'm I setting my white balance wrong? I switch to manual, use a piece of white paper in the entire frame push the button it balances. I keep holding it down and it goes right into black balance. I then switched back to auto. I guess I'm wondering if the white balance holds when switching back to auto. As I understand it you cannot white balance in auto which I think is stupid but whatever. Oh and where exactly is the system reset?
 
Instead of using the "Auto" switch. Why donlt you leave it at manual then use

Focus on auto and Iris on auto? That way you have manual control over WB and gain.

You'd have to ask Barry about how the full auto mode handles gain. There is an option for off, 6 or 12 in the Auto SW menu. It always seems to boost gain if I have that mode on and have the gain set at 6 or 12. I have only used this mode for testing so I'm not sure what the deal is there.


To do a reset: OTHER FUNCTIONS - MENU INIT - YES
 
There is no gain in manual mode, but in full auto mode it can use gain up to whatever limit you've specified. I think the factory default is up to 6dB.
 
Initially when I started shooting I saw that SW auto was set at 6 and I set it to 0 but alas nothing has improved. I'll look into some of the suggestions here. It's nice to have people that are willing to assist. If there are any other ideas I'd love to hear them. I will try manual with auto iris and focus. Considering I shoot inside with tungsten lighting that I feel is adequate is there a scene file I should consider using? Also, should I measure the lux that my conditions are at to take one unknown out of the equation? Just curious. Maybe that's a rediculous idea, I don't know. Barry I will be purchasing the book for sure.
 
Here's what I would do.

If ALL the lighting is tungstan, I would shoot using the 3.2K Color balance preset.

Focus is up to you whether you like it on auto or not.

Iris I would hit the auto iris switch to get an approx exposure, then hit it again to go manual.

Using the WFM (wave form monitor) to adjust exposure and check for any blow outs in the upper levels. (or zebras - I prefer the WFM). Leave it set at that exposure. Shoot the shot.

When using auto iris, the mechanism will hunt up and down. If someone with a white shirt for example walks across the camera the camera will turn down the exposure. When out of view it will hunt back up. This leads to a strobing effect on exposure and is why auto iris is rarely used outside of maybe run and gun news type shooting. (Other than to find approx exposure levels like I stated earlier).
 
Since I bought the camera back in 2008 I've had unusual amounts of noise, but I always supposed it was like that in every camera...maybe I'm doing something wrong..... Pushing the ABB puts things even worse... I may have to contact customer support....
Is anyone aware of any problems (that needed sending the camera to CS) with noise in other cameras?
 
shootit said:
Not trying to be antagonistic but if auto is not usable why is it there? I really do not see the point of it if that is the case. Actually when out of auto mode what all functions require my input? I've not used it that much yet so I'm just curious if you know. Maybe you're right I don't know. Thanks. Oh and I have done a black balance each time as well as white. They're done in the same action anyway right? I just push the button for the white and keep holding it and it goes directly into the black balance. Or am I doing it wrong?
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"Not trying to be antagonistic" but if you're shooting everything in auto -- why did you buy an HMC150?

You can do amazing things with an HMC150 -- but it's got a learning curve -- and you need to learn stuff. Putting everything in auto is the equivalent of driving a Porsche in 25mph zones in an inner city. It sucks compared to an automatic KIA.

If you need a crash course type thing -- get Barry Green's video for the HVX200. If you've got time, read one of his books on the camera (I think there are two now).

The noise issue exists -- but precisely what you're encountering could span anything from your playback mechanism to your camera settings. I don't remember what you specified in terms of lighting power -- but the lighting configuration is as important or more important than the wattage.

When I first got the camera I had a similar reaction. But, as I learned my way around using it -- it wasn't long before I overcame it.

Slow your shutter speed, (as mentioned above) kill the gain, B.Press gamma, DRS OFF, avoid "CINE D," etc. In post there are other options including the beloved "Neat Video," and Boris just released a new "DeNoise" plug-in that we're currently testing.

Bottom line -- if you're using AUTO -- you shouldn't be using an HMC150. Return it, buy a Canon HV40, and pocket the extra two or so thousand.

I honestly don't intend a harsh type response -- but "AUTO" is something offensive to weirdos like me who frequent this forum.
 
AGMedia said:
"Not trying to be antagonistic" but if you're shooting everything in auto -- why did you buy an HMC150?

You can do amazing things with an HMC150 -- but it's got a learning curve -- and you need to learn stuff. Putting everything in auto is the equivalent of driving a Porsche in 25mph zones in an inner city. It sucks compared to an automatic KIA.

If you need a crash course type thing -- get Barry Green's video for the HVX200. If you've got time, read one of his books on the camera (I think there are two now).

The noise issue exists -- but precisely what you're encountering could span anything from your playback mechanism to your camera settings. I don't remember what you specified in terms of lighting power -- but the lighting configuration is as important or more important than the wattage.

When I first got the camera I had a similar reaction. But, as I learned my way around using it -- it wasn't long before I overcame it.

Slow your shutter speed, (as mentioned above) kill the gain, B.Press gamma, DRS OFF, avoid "CINE D," etc. In post there are other options including the beloved "Neat Video," and Boris just released a new "DeNoise" plug-in that we're currently testing.

Bottom line -- if you're using AUTO -- you shouldn't be using an HMC150. Return it, buy a Canon HV40, and pocket the extra two or so thousand.

I honestly don't intend a harsh type response -- but "AUTO" is something offensive to weirdos like me who frequent this forum.
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I'll thank you not to tell me what I should and should not own. What does shooting in Auto have to do with being antagonistic unless you're just a pretentious jerk? If that offends you I feel sorry for you. Oh and I actually own a Porsche and they do quite well in 25mph zones in inner cities. When I go to Sebring with it I don't bust balls on the guys that are out there for the first time and don't know how to carry speed into and through a turn or know the proper line to take. I share and help. I do not say, you have no business owning a Porsche. Beyond that I really don't have much to say about your post. I'm sorry that you're offended that I bought a camera that is, AT THIS TIME, over my head. I will figure it out, like I do everything else. Honestly, though, I'm not impressed by a camera that given fairly optimal conditions can't shoot without noise right out of the box. Sony, which I've gone through a few that were top-of-the-line at the time never gave me these issues? I thank the rest of you for your HELPFUL posts. Grandstanding is not wanted from anymore "camera genuises". Just so you know, I don't shoot weddings and do most of my shooting standing in one spot. Not trying to denigrate those that do just saying that the reason I like some "auto" is that I would be constantly compensating with the controls shooting the way I do. I need the camera to "help" while I'm working.
 
Hi

Why would you need to 'avoid Cine D.' I thought that others had recommended this setting for a combination of low noise and a flatter image (to be able to work with in post) or have I misunderstood?

Also, if you are making core adjustments to scene files, would this over ride the need to do a reset ?

Cheers
 
Specifically what kind of noise are you referring to? Chroma noise , compression artifacts , sharpening halos ?

Maybe you could post a screenshot or sample clip, it might help to narrow down the
problem.

Something doesn't make sense; even on "auto" you shouldn't be getting much noise of any kind
 
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