NO 24p in PAL HVX200

FREUDENBERG_FILMS

FREUDENBERG_FILMS

Well-known member
Just found out panasonic is going to bend over all the PAL users and kick us between the legs over the 24p...... They beleave we only need 25p over 24p..... Yeah we can use magic bullet ad squeeze down the sound by 4% but well lose a rez!

Im now looking at a canon, jvc, something that gives me 24p when I want to do a film out!....... hope panasonic mungrels are reading this cause theyll lose a heap of PAL users over this.... :mad:

Maybe if all the pal users dont buy a PAL HVX200 untill they fix this major problem with the camera!!!


as you can see im cut like a snake!!!!!!
 
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FREUDENBERG_FILMS said:
Just found out panasonic is going to bend over all the PAL users and kick us between the legs over the 24p...... They beleave we only need 25p over 24p..... Yeah we can use magic bullet ad squeeze down the sound by 4% but well lose a rez!
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Well I thought that 25p/50i 1440x1080 will be better than 24p/60i 1280x1080 or am I wrong? Plus pull-down hassle away.

Or the HVX CCDs can produce a better DVCPRO-HD 1280x1080 than 1440x1080?
 
if you are doing a film out you do the same as any 35mm film shot in the world at 25fps ... they transfer it frame by frame and in europe they play it back at 25fps and in the USA they play it back at 24fps ( yes when they film out they'll adjust the sound ) ...

please explain how you lose resolution on a PAL film out ??
 
this is an issue i've brought up many times before on this forum and others....

i think we in PAL land should start a petition or similar to get panasonic to make an upgrade available for the PAL cameras to be able to do at least 24p & also 60p...

Canon & Sony have this feature available already so why haven't Panasonic??...
 
please explain how you lose resolution on a PAL film out ??
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you shoot the film, short or whatever you wish to put to film. As it's DV you capture the footage to P2 card, then from here you capture to your editor, thats the first rez you lose which is ok, then you edit from there and reder it out for distrubution, which is the second rez. problem is you shot on 25p not 24p so instead of going streight to film at 24p you have to have it converted into 24p. thus you lose another rez generation. So where as shooting on 24p will get you out to film in say the generations converting from 25p to 24p makes 3 generations thus lose of rez........


its only slightly noticable but the more you render then convert and render the more rez you lose. Some people think that you dont lose reseloution in DV, thats a myth you do...... Hope this makes sence.

I agree we need to start posting all over the net to boycot PAL unless they give us 24p the same as a pal DVX!!!!!!!

:thumbup:
 
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Freudenberg, you have some fundamental misunderstandings going on.

First, if shooting for film, you wouldn't shoot DV anyway, you'd shoot high-def.

Second, you don't "capture" from the P2 card, you transfer the files over. No resolution loss whatsoever, no uncompress, no recompress. It's a direct file transfer.

Third, when you convert to 24P you don't lose any resolution at all. You simply slow down the footage 4%. You'd render out to an uncompressed series of high-def still frames, losing no resolution whatsoever.

So shooting 25p on the PAL HVX and making a film transfer will result in ZERO generation losses, not the three that you're suggesting.

You can choose to boycott if you wish, but please make your decision based on the actual facts.
 
As much as I'd llike to see the p24, this is just plain wrong.
smiley.gif



You do not lose rez in the slowdown from 25 to 24, what happens is that the frames are playd 1/25 slower, but they should not need re-rendering - if you use the right software at least. The audio will be slowed down, though.

You also do not "capture" and "re-capture"the way you describe it - often not even with DV.

You _copy_ the files from p2 (no gen-loss), and you send the finished edit for distribution.
If you go to DVD or DV or a SD format, you'll have a gen-loss, if you stay in DVCPRO-HD, you will not have more than one gen-loss on rendered edits.

Even after slowing down your finished movie.

Gunleik
 
Barry, i believe he meant dv as in Digital Video (independent of HD or SD). I can also interpred the "capture Dv to P2 card"as the process of the camera recording to the file- converting the signal to a MXF file. The other generational loss should be the editing in itself and rendering of effects. Final file conversion from 25p 50i would then need to be reconformed to 24p 60i- which in Freundenberg Film's perspective, equals another generational loss.
 
As I understand it they can only record at specific framerates related to the harmonics of their timing crystal. This isn't a "Please can we have it" sort of situation this is a sorry folks, unless they redesign the camera with a more expensive design it aint possible.
 
I think most films shot on something like a HVX are going to find most of their audience on video anyway - even most major productions find more audience on video! Therefore 25p would actually be better unless you are distributing outside your broadcast standard, but in that case, I would buy a US HVX anyway.

There are other problems with using 24p in the UK as well, like how to carry the signal in a 50i stream.

To be honest, the conversion of 25p to 24p is such a small issue that it outweighs all the other problems associated with 24p.
 
Yep, hes right - or simply transfer the films 25 to film on a frame per frame basis and pitch bend your sound in the mix (which is the only place you'll notice the 4% speed difference as your actors voices will sound slightly lower and music will suffer from the change in tone) - your film will be 4% longer but it'll be impossible to tell the difference, In fact many european features are shot this way to accomodate transfer to television and avoid what is called drop frame editing. its all standard practice.
 
I agree that there are working workarounds 24p but a little more tlc for pal land would be appriciated
 
Boycot? What else!

Boycot? What else!

FREUDENBERG_FILMS said:
I agree we need to start posting all over the next to boycot PAL unless they give us 24p the same as a pal DVX!!!!!!!

:thumbup:
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And I am missing the 60p frame rate option on the PAL version just as well! Why the heck is Panasonic holding back 24p and 60p? It doesn't make any sense from my point of view at all. It is just annoying. Boycot of the PAL version is probably the only answer Panasonic would listen to! By the way: Boycot and buying the US version helps saving us European customers a LOT of money!
 
Barry, i believe he meant dv as in Digital Video (independent of HD or SD). I can also interpred the "capture Dv to P2 card"as the process of the camera recording to the file- converting the signal to a MXF file. The other generational loss should be the editing in itself and rendering of effects. Final file conversion from 25p 50i would then need to be reconformed to 24p 60i- which in Freundenberg Film's perspective, equals another generational loss.
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That is correct, capturing to the P2 is fine but the very first capture from the HVX will lose rez won't it?

Yes most people will find more or a market for the films/shorts on DVD as a lot of movies do.

I do a lot of after effects and 3D animating, compositing and matte work and I know from early trials i did that every time you mix some effects that have been rendered out multiple times you cant get that footage to fit in with your editing because it looks like its shot on video no DV.....

I was really waiting for this camera to hit the shelves. It was HD and its images are chrisp and clean, a canvase to begin with and make dirty but it makes me a little angry about the 24p, Pal has higher rez and that may be the trade off.

But still I would have loved the HVX to have the option of 24p in PAL in HD.

Maybe the HVX200AE will have it.
 
I have to say that I agree with Freudenberg, this doesnt make sense! Why no 60p (or something close)?

Panasonic said there was no point becasue they wanted to make it compatable with PAL editors. But I just dont get this. My limited understanding is that they have to use a different crystal running at a different frequency to get 25p - hence why we dont have 60p either. However Im sure they could have found a frame rate between 50 and 60 that the camera's crystal could scan at.

After all, this frame rate is only going to be used as a PAL slo-mo, coverted in the NLE to a 25p playback.

2x isnt bad, but I feel like the US get a better deal! 24p doesnt bother me much to be honest but lack of super slo mo does.
 
What we get though is the 100mb 25p 1440x1080 vs. the 80mb 24pa 1280x1080.

Not that it matters that much I guess.....
 
call me mike, FREUDENBERG is my German last name and has too many letters to keep writing in a forum and is too formal....

everyone call me Mike
 
its not even about having 24p for film transfer, its about having options. What about 60p, 60i, 24p, 30p available to us? Why do we have to go through all the hassle in post production to get these options?

Please wake up Panasonic... I can handle the non interchangable lense, low res LCD, high cost of P2 and not so "professional look" of the camera (compared to H1 and HD100)... but not having these US/NTSC frame rates in this modern globalised world is a huge mistake on your part...

Heck, charge me $500 for the an optional upgrade, just dont give me no option at all..... Sad really...
 
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