NO 24p in PAL HVX200

I think they should follow Sony Z1 and make a camera with both 50i and 60i rates. The only compromise on a PAL HVX is 60i output. Everything can be done just fine. And the only compromise for NTSC HVX is 50i. So Europeans have the same problem with Americans in that department. It would be nice if both had the extra rate options.

25p audio to 24p audio can be done without pitch change. Many tools preserve the pitch and the change is so small it is free of artifacts even with simple algorithms. Pitch change has no artifacts but it sounds bad IMHO.
 
Why is everyone whining?

I love the fact that we in PAL land can use any of the footage from the camera in our natrive timebase. You know all those problems with what NLE supports what framerate? Premiere probelms with Panny 24p etc.. in PAL land these are a non issue! It all works!

Sure i'd like to be able to use the same camera for NTSC and PAL work, but you just can't fit that into this package at the price with curent technology. So I'm stuck using local gear? fine. I KNOW it will work with my NLE.
Be it Pinnacle Studio (the bane of all video editors) or top notch avid, the timebases from the HVX200 will work. Without trouble, or pulldown, etc.

My artistic film will also match broadcast standard nativly right from the camera. I can record it thorugh converters to a DigiBETA deck if I want to, and it will work without trouble.

Just count the number of problems on the forum daily regarding 24p "won't work with this, how do I export that, blach blah" notice there are NO problems with 25p. Ever.

You want it to look like film? Then shoot like film.

You want a ENG camera that you can use anywhere in the world, get a Z1 - oh, but the footage still won't match even if you switch camera modes!

[/rant]

- Mikko
 
At last! The voice of Mikko-reason spoke! I can't agree more that this whole 24p-25p is a non-issue.
 
mikkowilson said:
Sure i'd like to be able to use the same camera for NTSC and PAL work, but you just can't fit that into this package at the price with curent technology.
- Mikko
Click to expand...

why can't you?

Sony and Canon seem to be able to impliment NTSC/PAL features on low budget cameras....
 
Yes PAL (50Hz territory) brings a more intelligent TV signal... 25P, 50P, 50i. Only compressed 12 f/s is not a good way, NTSC (60Hz) 15/f from 30f or any even divided number is better.

But one market- one cam, 50/60Hz is a brilliant way to close the gap, I cant see the difficulties doing that, but maybe it is protecting step against the gray market.
 
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xray said:
But one market- one cam, 50/60Hz is a brilliant way to close the gap, I cant see the difficulties doing that, but maybe it is protecting step against the gray market.
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Grey market wont be such a huge deal now that Panasonic & the other manufacturers are making the prices sort of similar across the globe (well not as bad as it use to be, hardly worth grey importing with warranty issues, local support etc)

I very much doubt its a grey market issue since Canon & Sony do NTSC/PAL on the one cam....
 
I've always believed that this pal vs. ntsc thing is a mixture of politics, marketing, engineering and "cultural" compatibility.

The rational thing to do is to get rid of PAL and NTSC altogether and devise a universal standard so that everyone can work together easily, like computing works with PDF, XML , ANSI and so forth. Unfortunately the film\video technical culture is in a whole different universe in that aspect compared to computing.

However if PAL and NTSC were made obsolete right now and major broadcast equipment manufacturers stopped supporting them (yeah right!) there would still be a huge problem.

The world we're living is getting weirder every day....
 
Lets do some math: *shudder*

Sony Z1:
2 Framerates: 50i and 60i
3 Recording Formats: HDV, DVCAM, DV.
Total available shooting modes: 6

Canon XL-H1 (After upgrade):
5 framerates: 50i, 25f, 60i, 30f, 24f
2 recording formats: HDV, DV
Total available shooting modes: 10

Panasonic HVX200 (NTSC):
12 framerates: 12p, 18p, 20p, 22p, 24p, 26p, 30p, 32p, 36p, 48p, 60p, 60i
5 recording formats: DVCPRO-HD 1080, DVCPRO-HD 720, DVCPRO-50, DVCPRO(25), DV
Total available shooting modes: ~23 - not counting recording medium or pulldown options!

Panasonic HVX200 (PAL):
12 framerates: 12p, 18p, 20p, 23p, 25p, 27p, 30p, 32p, 36p, 48p, 50p, 50i
5 recording formats: DVCPRO-HD 1080, DVCPRO-HD 720, DVCPRO-50, DVCPRO(25), DV
Total available shooting modes: ~21 - not counting recording medium or pulldown options!
-> Notice that the PAL HVX *does* have 30p as a shooting mode, if you want to go that convelouted path to NTSC. It even has 48p so you can shoot that and extract a clean (fast shutter) 24p!

And for those keeping track:
Total available shooting modes offered by the HVX200-NTSC and PAL versions together: ~42!

If 23(or 21) shooting modes arn't enough for you, then you should probabaly be using a bigger camera anyway - or prehaps film.

Where Sony and Canon manage 6 and 10 modes, you want Panny to douple their whopping 23 to 42?
In a 5lb camera?
Regardless of cost...

Good luck!


Oh yeah, and regarding that "we want 60p for slow-motion in PAL": Does anyone care to explain to me how you plan to record 60 frames into a 50 frame data stream?

- Mikko
 
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Frame modes is not something you can compare by counting:) We know the single main 50i mode we use for normal video is extremely more important than an extra variable frame rate mode somewhere between others, which we might use once in a while or never. We also know that a single 60i mode can save us from renting/buying an extra camera.

It's more like this:

Panasonic: 50i modes or 60i modes, variable frame rates (one extra feature)

Z1: 50i and 60i modes (one extra feature)

Canon: 50i or 60i modes (basic features only, extra feature with upgrade)

Also, adding the extra modes does not increase the weight or size of a camera:) We are talking electronics here. Andromeda for DVX is 0.004kg I believe:) It does not even increase the cost by something significant for a camera that expensive. And since there is competition in this market that has the feature, Panasonic should have thought of that. It would help sales.
 
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Smart Alac said:
Grey market wont be such a huge deal now that Panasonic & the other manufacturers are making the prices sort of similar across the globe (well not as bad as it use to be, hardly worth grey importing with warranty issues, local support etc)

I very much doubt its a grey market issue since Canon & Sony do NTSC/PAL on the one cam....
Click to expand...

No you are wrong, I heard Jan saying that there are a lot of grey market DVX100X products that is why Panasonic is bringing the rebate programm with Pana selected dealers.
 
limo991 said:
Frame modes is not something you can compare by counting:) We know the single main 50i mode we use for normal video is extremely more important than an extra variable frame rate mode somewhere between others, which we might use once in a while or never. We also know that a single 60i mode can save us from renting/buying an extra camera.

It's more like this:

Panasonic: 50i modes or 60i modes, variable frame rates (one extra feature)

Z1: 50i and 60i modes (one extra feature)

Canon: 50i or 60i modes (basic features only)
Click to expand...

Yeah, but how do you want to record those variable framerates? in a 60hz stream (Eg: NTSC) or a 50hz stream (Eg: PAL)?
20fps in a DVCPRO-HD "NTSC" stream is totally different to 20fps in a DVCPRO-HD "PAL" stream.
so even the same framerates would have to be counted seperatly for 50hz and 60hz modes. - Still the same ~42 modes.

- Mikko
 
If the camera supports 60i and 50i it obviously records both in the respective format. 50i and 60i are not variable frame rates. They are different formats.

About the Panasonic, I guess the variable frame rates will be recorded on a single format 60p or 50p stream depending on the region. I think 720 is a 50p/60p stream in DVCPROHD so it is simple. P2 also records active frames only in some modes I believe. Someone that has the camera could provide more info.
 
btw, I din't say the number is innacurate, I'm just saying that variable frame rates is just one feature and having PAL and NTSC on the same camera is another feature and not a simple insignificant mode.
 
HTML: 
 I agree we need to start posting all over the net to boycot PAL unless they give us 24p the same as a pal DVX!!!!!!!

There IS NO P24 on the PAL DVX100.

Maybe Panasonic should just give us here in PAL land 100P and get it over with!!! :)
 
FREUDENBERG_FILMS said:
That is correct, capturing to the P2 is fine but the very first capture from the HVX will lose rez won't it?
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No, because you don't "capture". The file is written to the card as a pre-digitized digital clip. You just copy that clip, bit-for-bit over to your hard disk, unmodified.

But still I would have loved the HVX to have the option of 24p in PAL in HD.

Maybe the HVX200AE will have it.
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A lot of people have expressed interest in that, so I'm not questioning your sincerity in wanting it. I'm just pointing out that you will encounter *no* generational losses, rather than the three that you were fearing.
 
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What if we give PAL to all the NTSC countries?

Dead right. We'd save them from all that pull-down, drag-up, come-on over for a coffee stuff...
How the hell did you guys manage to invent that ? and 29.96 frames a second! Now that's perverse!! :D
 
Thanks barry for that, so P2 cards are not capture but transfered to the computer thus saving losing a rez. At least that will give people a clean canvas to start on.

Im thinking Panasonic wont give PAL 24p even in the future unless they start getting rid of there high end cameras ( which i hope never happends ) . I think its not a PAL option because 24p in higher image quality would infact make a few people opt for the HVX200 over say there Panasonic AJ-SDX900E DVCPRO50 which retails for around $33,000 AUD....

But then again they would make more money selling HVX200 in mass then the AJ-SDX900E camera....

I think im over this spitting and cursing at Panasonic over this 24p stuff around. Hopefully they take this on board and make a HVX with 24p, in PAL as an option we can use for film outs.
 
Not this tired topic again.

The reason Panasonic doesn't include 24P on a PAL camera, is that nobody (in their right mind) would use it.

It's directly equivalent to complaining that Ford doesn't also include left-hand drive on it's right-hand drive UK-market Mustangs.

From a technical standpoint, 25P is superior. You'd have to be bat-sh1t insane to give it up for 24P.

25->24 fps conversions have been done for more than 80 years. It is not an issue.
 
pmark23 said:
Not this tired topic again.

The reason Panasonic doesn't include 24P on a PAL camera, is that nobody (in their right mind) would use it.

It's directly equivalent to complaining that Ford doesn't also include left-hand drive on it's right-hand drive UK-market Mustangs.

From a technical standpoint, 25P is superior. You'd have to be bat-sh1t insane to give it up for 24P.

25->24 fps conversions have been done for more than 80 years. It is not an issue.
Click to expand...

I would use it. Probably my mind is not "right", then.
 
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