New Workflow From Apple

1st up, no matter what method you use, you should always have a way to verify all your clips are there.

I just import via FCP and keep the QT files. I don't know why I would need the original P2 files. It's the same clips with the same data.
 
I thought that all digital info was the same- just a bunch of 1's and 0's- and that when you moved info from one place to another you were making an exact copy of those 1's & 0's. I didn't realize that something got changed along the way.
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Oh, my god! This is turning out to be the best Internet myth ever.

I've been emailing the original instructions to some friends, and the instructions are so convoluted, no one believes me. (Don't worry, I'm not attributing it to anyone by name.)
 
Hatchmo:

If you're finding that both "the instructions are so convoluted" and that this is "the best internet myth ever", you might save us all some time and look elsewhere for an argument on the disk image option.

As with any workflow application, it has its pro's & con's. Don't like it? Simply don't do it. End of my discussion {for now} on the matter.
 
If your Apple disks are formatted HFS+, then when you write to them they are storing the data in that underlying format. I can write an ISO CD image to my NTFS disk (Windows), but that doesn't mean that the OS bypasses NTFS and renders the file using the ISO filesystem when I mount it. It is an ISO file stored on top of NTFS, just like under Linux you can store a tarball under ReiserFS, etc. Now, it may be that there is some checksum or other verification in the creation of the disk image file (which might explain why it takes so long). I'd agree with the statement that any data verification process is warranted if you don't want to chance corruption. Further, you should be writing it to a fault tolerant drive (RAIDed disk) if you are trying to be safe or not delete the source until it is verified.

While the tone may be a little too amused, I think there is a good point about one .dmg file (unverified) risking more of your work than individual files.

Hopefully we're all trying to learn something here. Can't expect everyone to be an expert in all aspects of technology and cinema.
 
I'm a total n00b at this as I haven't shot high-def or used a P2 workflow, but here's my thoughts:

The main issue seems to be not recording to the P2 card or using those files once they're on your NLE, but transferring everything from the P2 card to your NLE with everything intact.

I like the idea of pulling the data of a P2 card as a disk image with full verification and setting it to read-only. Burning this immediately to a dvd-r (my plan is to use 4gig cards so even a full one would easily fit on a single-layer dvd-r) with full verification as a secondary back up.

Then once I'm back in the office taking these disk images and mounting them within, in this case Final Cut, and transferring them to my scratch. After that i can unmount the disk images and have both a hard drive full of them and the dvd-rs i burned on set as my back-ups and continue in post off my scratch.

Is this not a viable option based on what everyone has said here? You have the disk images of your P2 cards so that you have a verified copy that wasn't complicated by transcribing from one disk format to another and then your working files on your scratch drives? Seems to me if there's any discrepancy between your scratch and your P2 images it would be an easy fix since you can go back to your original disk images.
 
epplegacks:

You nailed it. That's exactly why I couldn't understand such a vehement response to disk imaging. It seems like a pretty solid way to have DVD-R clones of 4 gig P2 cards.
Best case, you never need 'em and you've got some nice DVD coasters. Worst case, you've got a self-contained archive of each card from your shoot.

I've edited long enough to know there will be issues with tapeless workflow. This is just another safety measure.

Time-consuming? Maybe. That one shot you lost? Irreplaceable.......

:costumed-smiley-047 'I pity da fool that don't back up their P2 media!'
 
What about formatting your disc as FAT32? I do this when dumping cards to my PC for delivery to a Mac system
 
MY 2 CENTS
Have an External HD formatted FAT32
Copy your CONTENTS/LASTCLIP.TXT files into a directory (eg. ROLL 1)
Highlight the contents/lastclip on the P2 card, and on the contents/lastclip you just copied to your external HD, then click GET INFO on both, verify that the files sizes/quantity of files match exactly. You might have a few more bites on the one copied to your EXT. HD, thats OKAY! P2 cards and HD's differ sometimes, but if you have LESS then you have a problem!

You now have an exact copy of the P2 card.. If you make a disk image you are basically taking the risk that those files will be in there.. You have no way of verifying until you open the disk image. And on set you dont have the luxury of that much time..

NOW the tricky part.. If you are using 8 GIG cards, you must be mindful that when you import into FCP using this FAT32 drive, that any file over 4GIGS will not import properly because FAT32 limits file sizes to 4GIGS, the actual video file will be under 4 gigs because the P2 card will break the file at that point because it is FAT32, but when FCP adds the audio, the file will grow to over 4 gigs and you will get an error if the FAT32 drive is also your SCRATCH/CAPTURE disk. So the best thing to do is have an additional external HD formatted for MAC (HFS) as your scratch/capture drive..

Any questions or comments PLEASE TELL ME!! I'm still learning here.. THE HARD WAY!

- - Justin
 
the FS issue isn't really a bid deal, you're getting the same data.

the point of the disk image creation is checksumming - they are probably crc23ing the FS at creation.

all that gets you is your computer telling you that the data you have is EXACTLY the same as what you had on the card, it won't help if you actually have a problem with the card.

I always wondered why checksumming isn't integrated into all operations that move data in FSs, but it is computationally expensive (and requires a double read to do properly).

Anyway blah blah - you could also write an rsync script which crc32s or MD5s the files as they are copies so you are FFING CERTAIN you have byte for byte copies.

I actually really like the DMG idea, because it treats the cards like single physical objects in the file system, which is how you think of them in the real world.

i.e. reel 001 is reel001.dmg in your FS, not a folder called reel 001 with a bunch of crap in it.

Re: rec INH SW - that's "record inhibit switch" the tiny dip on the end of the card. I agree, this is a good idea, but I also very much doubt that the finder will fsck up the mounted FAT32 volume. I think it is much more likely that a crappy finder copy kills a file. The finder is a POS, they should just offer the blacktree people tons of money to rebuild it for them as meta-quicksilver :P

Anyway - bottom line, checksum the files and you will be happy. Creating disk images is a convenient way of doing that and packaging everything up into neat little bundles.

_a
 
btw I do believ p2 copy or whatever it is called does optionally checksum the files - but another advantage of DMGs is that they retain their checksum information - so every tie you open them you can choose to rerun the verification. That means you KNOW the data you are using from the DMG 6 months later is exactly the same as it was on the card when it was shot. Very nice.

I might do an automator workflow for this - reel # and datestamp on a checksummed DMG. Would be pimp.

_a
 
heh, ana panasonic thinks it wil save people money and time with an "IT" based workflow. a HAHAHAHA yeah right.

suddenly you need to know all this extra crap that you never needed with tape. glad I'm already a nerd, otherwise I would be screwed :P
 
Turing - I'd much rather deal with these issues than tape. All it takes is for one tape to get eaten before you start seriously feeling ill each time you put a tape into a camera or deck.

With P2 cards screw ups can happen in the camera, you can't prevent failure between the CCD to the recording media. But what P2 allows us to do is to quickly verify we have all the clips, instantly preview them in full quality, and then design an archive workflow that makes sure we have the files we need with redundancy. Doing tape dubs helps, but again not when one get's eaten right before your eyes. There's also no more dealing with timecode breaks and reconforming to online quality via tapes (which I've never had successfully happen). Personally I feel this is the bees knees, but cheaper or less complicated yeah i dunno either. ;)

However your automator workflow idea would be fantastic. I'd love to be able to hand my powerbook to someone and the P2 card and just have them loading footage in all day simply by double clicking an automator workflow, entering in a reel number and the date and time that the card was loaded and whatever and having it load the media in with checksums and all that stuff automatically. So if the workflow says it was successful then it's byte for byte verified successful.
 
Don't get me wrong - I am looking forward to transitioning into a tapeless workflow. As for epplegack's tape issues, I don't share similar experiences. HD (HDCam & D5) and SD (Beta, DigiBeta, DVCam, etc.) with over 500 network episodes to 190 countries and I have yet to see a tape get eaten.

Offline -> Online. Seamless every time. Avid & Final Cut both. I have however seen drives go down and file corruption but that's what these backups are all about.

I am embracing P2, let's just not get crazy dissin' tape. You still gotta get to tape to get on-air. Drives are cheap. HD decks..... not so much.
 
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I've been using the insert card, make DMG, open DMG import into FCP to check files, than delete the final cut pro files to save space until editing.

I back up all the stuff, and after one session of copying a bunch of files, one of the DMG's stopped opening, giving me a "no mountable file system error"

it opened before the copy but not after. i can attach the NO NAME image in disk utility but cannot mount it.

Any suggestions?

We're backing up all DMG's to DVD-R, but didn't get that one backed up.
 
i have a completely ignorant question but is this issue limited only to P2 cards?

i mean can ingestion of data from a hard drive such as a firestore also have this issue?
 
tak1108 said:
I've been using the insert card, make DMG, open DMG import into FCP to check files, than delete the final cut pro files to save space until editing.

I back up all the stuff, and after one session of copying a bunch of files, one of the DMG's stopped opening, giving me a "no mountable file system error"

it opened before the copy but not after. i can attach the NO NAME image in disk utility but cannot mount it.

Any suggestions?

We're backing up all DMG's to DVD-R, but didn't get that one backed up.
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Try mounting it with Toast.
There are also some Terminal commands that can help - I'll see if I can dig them up.

edit: here's one. Don't ask me wtf they're talking about, tho :-)
http://www.macosxhints.com/article.php?story=2005050606123892

Good thread here as well http://discussions.apple.com/message.jspa?messageID=1204332

hope that helps
 
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is this issue limited only to P2 cards?
i mean can ingestion of data from a hard drive such as a firestore also have this issue?
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There is no issue. If you understand how disk files work, you will be puzzled by this thread. Don't be impressed by the word "Checksum". In this context, it is not relevant. Creating a disk image (DMG) each time is a huge, huge waste of time and will gain you no more safety than simply copying the files. There is no issue.
 
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