New User ( Canon t2I ) Looking for some opinions regarding gear

ok, vision_filmz. let me first apologize on behalf of both myself and c2v for trying to help you, as its quite clear you already have it all figured out. and only want to hear what you want to hear.

what i did read and comprehend in your first post was that youve had your DSLR for "a couple of months" combine that with you presenting three accessories (that just about every new-comer gets drunk on), two of which are clear el-cheapo knockoffs of other designs. i just assumed (possibly incorrectly) that you might not yet have a complete picture of whats out there, how these things work or what your first steps should be.

if you have never used them how can you say they are not good?
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how do we know how these items work if we havent used these EXACT ITEMS? we dont. but from years in the industry using a variety of similar gear we just might have a general idea of how these things work. i've owned an 8' kesslercrane for several years. as well as all the external accessories involved with it. and i have a pretty good idea of the physics behind how they work. the picture of the one you sent doesnt look all that smart from an engineering standpoint...

and as far as the skaterslider thing goes. there are a number of disparate or potentially variable points of contact and there are a lot of things that in my OPINION, could hamper smooth travel. and those things might also make noise. clearly the noise may not bother YOU. but it might bother someone else reading this post. and the nature of a public forum is that others might glean some helpful information even if the OP doesnt.

CheesyCam is one of the best places on the net for very informative posts and shares excellent budget tools with the community.
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says whom? ive been there a few times and most of what ive seen looks kind of ridiculous from both a production as well as end result standpoint. but maybe we just have a dramatically different perception of "excellent"

Further more I seen a recent post of yours stating that you do not work creatively and are more with restrictions in your line of work
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i know the post youre referring to and thats completely NOT what i said.

unless someone is really shooting movies or music videos and using these kind of movements I feel that their opinion really holds no weight.
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how exactly is it that you have ANY IDEA what kind of movements either of us deploy in whatever kind of work we may or may not do? it seems to me that you read into things what you want. to suit the answers that youve already determined...

so really, im at the end of my emotional energy with this discussion. if you disagree with our opinions, thats totally cool. more power to you. get what you want and i truly sincerely hope it works out for the best for you. but you dont need to go making a bunch of half-informed accusations because you dont like our answers... : (
 
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vision_filmz said:
C2v My advice was regarding the 3 items I posted, if you have never used them how can you say they are not good? Why would you even say there are better items out there?
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Echoing wgzn, enough experience in the industry and the working knowledge of the engineering/physics that create a solid design tells me those are not well-made. Further, the video examples I've seen from those particular models of jib and slider have been full of inconsistent speed and wobbles. You can fight the gear for smooth movements, or you can get something that allows you to work creatively without the struggle.

vision_filmz said:
Heck Im more than sure there are many many cameras better than a t2i, but budget constraints and what it is able to do allows me and many users to use them. Honestly I just see things different in life and if I paid attention to everyone who said you can't do this or that I would never achieve anything.
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This is the second time you've addressed the T2i as if we're downing you for using that camera. In the interest of full disclosure I own and use a T2i, and I love the camera for what it is. In fact, I've been spending way too much the last few days building up a collection of vintage primes for my T2i.

No one's telling you what you can or cannot do. What we are saying is that there are better ways to work within your resources and to get what you want. Why make mistakes that have been made a thousand times already? There's no sense in reinventing the wheel.

vision_filmz said:
Yes there is better, yes this is not the best, but buyinf an item that only cost $150-$200+ is not something that is going to kill me and I can learn in the process. Everyone who has used that dual dolly rs and flycam nano has said nothing but good things about it, I may or may not like it...
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Again, give the DIY slider serious consideration. For $200 (ish), it's going to last you quite a while. Mine was just over $200 once I added the Filmtools riser.

vision_filmz said:
... but that wasn't the purpose of this thread. All I really wanted to know was more about camera movement, and unless someone is really shooting movies or music videos and using these kind of movements I feel that their opinion really holds no weight
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Do I really need to detail my resume for you? I am actually out there working... have been for a while... and I do actually use these camera movements. Your question about camera movements was answered in one of my earlier posts, but I'll repeat:

- The slider is your best investment at this point. It's versatile, and it has a pretty quick learning curve. Plus, you get a much better price:performance, especially right out of the box. I have one, and I love it... and I built it myself.
- The Flycam isn't worth getting. These things take hours upon hours of practice, plus they are quite tiring to use hand-held. I have owned a Glidecam 4000, with a support vest, for a couple of years now and still don't quite have it down.
- A jib is great, but is much more cost-effective to rent than to own. A really solid Libec jib can be rented for a very reasonable day rate, if needed. I've used cheap jibs and have found them to be just that: cheap. I rent a Libec when I need a compact jib.

Really, we are trying to help. We aren't dogging you for budgetary restrictions. Heck, I have some of the same budget constraints right now (which have been shot by the aforementioned primes I've been acquiring). Rather, we're trying to help you maximize that budget without blowing it on something that's not going to hold up very well for you.

Best of luck.

cathedral_shoot.jpg
 
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I am not good at DIY nor do I have the time to do it, so that's out of the question for me. Nice picture of that jib you have there. Well I guess according to the post here I need to buy something more expensive and save my money, well it was worth a shot.
 
What's the difference between kesslers light cranes and the ordinary cranes?

@vision-filmz: Check the konova-slider. It's been told that this is the best bang for the buck. You won't need the steadycam.
 
I'm not the most DIY-capable person in the world, either. It literally takes drilling a couple of holes and then thread-tapping them. It took me about 45 minutes to assemble.

And the picture is me... using a jib... since you seem to doubt that any of us actually do this stuff.
 
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What's the difference between kesslers light cranes and the ordinary cranes?
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it appears that they are exclusively for DSLRS and VERY light cameras as the weight is carried on the SIDE of the tripod head. which seems kind of misguided to me.

looking at the kessler site there's only $100 in price difference between the 5' lite and the 8' standard version. so unless you were in a situation where you just couldnt use the 8' i dont see much reason to buy the shorter or lite versions...

i really like my 8' kessler. its not quite as smooth as some of the higher priced offerings. but its also not as heavy (which is partially why its not as smooth) AND it has a couple of features that the higher priced models DONT have or dont have as conveniently.

but keep in mind that you will need a VERY beefy tripod and head to use one of these. i use an old manfrotton 510 head on 3193 legs. and that alone, even used is another $800. even kesslers own kpod+hercules head is about $900. i let a friend borrow my jib once and he put it on his 501 head and photo tripod and it nearly folded up on him when he wasnt looking. so be careful!

when i got it, kessler didnt offer hard cases for it. and i traveled with it a good bit. so i got a pair of pelican weapons cases and got EVERYTHING (aside from the tripod) to fit nicely inside.

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C2V said:
I'm not the most DIY-capable person in the world, either. It literally takes drilling a couple of holes and then thread-tapping them. It took me about 45 minutes to assemble.

And the picture is me... using a jib... since you seem to doubt that any of us actually do this stuff.
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Im not doubting you, what I said is these specific camera movements and more importantly for Music videos where you can cut around something. Lets just say I have a shot of a jib going up, then halfway it wobbles a bit, I would just cut to another scene and then cut back to the jib shot when it reached it's peak. This is the sole reason why it doesn't need to be perfect, only believable. Film making especially Independent is done like this all the time. If you have an option of something for nothing, I would use something, especially when people do anything to get jib and dolly shots.

People places cameras on skateboards, wheel chairs, etc. so you know what I'm talking about.
 
wgzn said:
it appears that they are exclusively for DSLRS and VERY light cameras as the weight is carried on the SIDE of the tripod head. which seems kind of misguided to me.

looking at the kessler site there's only $100 in price difference between the 5' lite and the 8' standard version. so unless you were in a situation where you just couldnt use the 8' i dont see much reason to buy the shorter or lite versions...

i really like my 8' kessler. its not quite as smooth as some of the higher priced offerings. but its also not as heavy (which is partially why its not as smooth) AND it has a couple of features that the higher priced models DONT have or dont have as conveniently.

but keep in mind that you will need a VERY beefy tripod and head to use one of these. i use an old manfrotton 510 head on 3193 legs. and that alone, even used is another $800. even kesslers own kpod+hercules head is about $900. i let a friend borrow my jib once and he put it on his 501 head and photo tripod and it nearly folded up on him when he wasnt looking. so be careful!

when i got it, kessler didnt offer hard cases for it. and i traveled with it a good bit. so i got a pair of pelican weapons cases and got EVERYTHING (aside from the tripod) to fit nicely inside.

View attachment 31340
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Expensive stuff. How much did you pay for everything (including tripod)?
 
vision_filmz said:
Lets just say I have a shot of a jib going up, then halfway it wobbles a bit, I would just cut to another scene and then cut back to the jib shot when it reached it's peak. This is the sole reason why it doesn't need to be perfect, only believable. Film making especially Independent is done like this all the time.
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Done like this all the time? Perhaps when it isn't done well. What if the wobble covers the part of the shot that you really need? What if it doesn't make sense to cut away from the jib shot and then cut back?

If you're having to cut around bumps in the shots, then you are letting the shots drive how you tell the story, rather than telling the story by getting the shots you need. That's a bit backwards. I'm not saying that's never happened to me... it does pop up on occasion, and you roll with it when it does... but it should be the exception and not the rule. I've seen people pulled into the boss's office for stuff like that, once a show hits post and the editor is telling the producer that the shot they asked for, the shot they want, is unusable.
 
C2V said:
Done like this all the time? Perhaps when it isn't done well. What if the wobble covers the part of the shot that you really need? What if it doesn't make sense to cut away from the jib shot and then cut back?

If you're having to cut around bumps in the shots, then you are letting the shots drive how you tell the story, rather than telling the story by getting the shots you need. That's a bit backwards. I'm not saying that's never happened to me... it does pop up on occasion, and you roll with it when it does... but it should be the exception and not the rule. I've seen people pulled into the boss's office for stuff like that, once a show hits post and the editor is telling the producer that the shot they asked for, the shot they want, is unusable.
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I agree with you 100%, but as of now I have 100% creative control so I am able to work how I choose as I am my own boss and the people we work with have no choice. Sounds crazy but when people start paying more $$ then they can call the shots.
 
Expensive stuff. How much did you pay for everything (including tripod)?
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just approximations... not including tax or shipping or whatever:
8' crane $500
manfrotto 510/3193 head/tripod $800
bebob foxi and zoe focus//iris/zoom controllers $500
dolly tripod wheels $125 (you could skip this, but its a huge pain without it!)
various extension cables, ties, stays $150
smallHD dp1 $1000 (but you can do this part cheaper - but not by much)
cases $300

so just about $3500
 
Whooa. Wouldn't this tripod be enough to use it as ordinary tripod and for the crane?
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in general, you can assume a tripod will effectively carry 3x what it says it can. so considering it says it supports 8.8lbs. youre looking at 27ish lbs. (MAYBE)

you have to consider:
the weight of the boom itself - 20lbs.
counterweights - at least 10lbs.
camera - ?
controls and cables - at least another 5lbs.

i personally wouldnt go that route. but maybe libec makes a beefier model?

now if a person was absolutely strapped for cash, the DIY link that rob posted at the top of this page would probably get the job done for a small consumer cam or minimally-outfitted dslr
 
@wgzn: Thanks for the input. Is there a jib that doesn't need a second person who holds the counterweigh?
 
muroshi said:
Is there a jib that doesn't need a second person who holds the counterweigh?
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???

Counterweights don't require an operator. Holding onto them will keep the jib from operating the way it should. If it's been balanced right, light pressure in any given direction will move the jib, and it can be parked in just about any position.

On the really big jibs and cranes, the operator is at the counterweight end and has a remote control system for pan, tilt, focus, and (if applicable) zoom. (Though, I did work a shoot with a RED ONE and a 30' jib where there was some one on the ground under the camera pulling focus...)

On the compact jibs, the operator is usually at the camera end for access to the camera mount, which often has a tripod head on it for pans and tilts. Some compact jibs do, however, have a tilt lever on the counterweight end. Either way, it is normally a single-operator rig.
 
Thanks for the clarification. So if the tripod is on a dolly, the camera still won't move up or down? Can you lock it?
 
So if the tripod is on a dolly, the camera still won't move up or down? Can you lock it?
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man, im just having a hard time understanding your questions...

the dolly and even the tripod head itself (in many cases) have nothing to do with the up and down movement of the camera. at least with the kessler. with the kessler, and many other "budget jibs" (as i understand them) you lock the vertical brake on your head and the up and down travel is preformed by the jib mechanism itself. the kessler DOES have a feature where you can free the vertical brake of your head and use a separate handle on the jib to perform compound lifting and tilting. but thats a fairly difficult task to master.

all the dolly does (in this application) is allow the rig to be mobile. this particular dolly isnt for riding on tracks or fundamentally adding to the shot. you CAN use that kind. but thats a WHOLE other conversation.

and with a jib there is very little that "locks". its mostly a matter of balance. once your rig is balanced PROPERLY nothing moves until you move it. and it should stay wherever you position it.
 
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