FS5: "New tests show Sony FS5 macro-blocking and noise issues when recording 4K internally

AlexLeith said:
I'm really intrigued. There are enough people (including myself) who are experiencing this issue that it's definitely a problem... but there are also a number of people who have no idea what everyone else is complaining about :-D It makes me wonder whether it's a hardware bug effecting only some units.
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It could be a hardware problem traced to a batch of FS5s but equally it could all units are affected and that those who are experiencing the problem have their FS5s set up in a particular way and those that don't may have a slightly different setup which does not reproduce the fault. It could be the tiniest setting change that is causing the affected units to exhibit the fault.

If I were a Sony engineer trying to get to the bottom of this fault I'd like to see an awful lot more information about camera setup, i.e the full camera set up from the lens to gain settings to WB settings etc etc of those affected cameras. I currently have only seen videos of the problem which doesn't help locating the bug other than to show there is a bug. The more information you can share may shed light on a particular area of your setup that differs from a so far unaffected camera.

I have battled with Sony and a UK dealer over a very serious bug in a previous camera and the only way I got them to listen and take action was to provide a comprehensive set of notes and video detailing the fault so it was impossible for them to give me the brush off, which was exactly what they tried at the beginning.
 
Nirv said:
If I were a Sony engineer trying to get to the bottom of this fault I'd like to see an awful lot more information about camera setup, i.e the full camera set up from the lens to gain settings to WB settings etc etc of those affected cameras. I currently have only seen videos of the problem which doesn't help locating the bug other than to show there is a bug. The more information you can share may shed light on a particular area of your setup that differs from a so far unaffected camera.
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Correct. And that's exactly what I tried to get clear back in post #66 several days ago. I was told the settings didn't matter, so if that's the attitude someone has, they clearly know nothing about troubleshooting and I'm not going to waste any of my time looking into it further.
 
Doug Jensen said:
Correct. And that's exactly what I tried to get clear back in post #66 several days ago. I was told the settings didn't matter, so if that's the attitude someone has, they clearly know nothing about troubleshooting and I'm not going to waste any of my time looking into it further.
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If you have some free time I would sure appreciate it if you could look into it a bit more. Its sometimes difficult to get unbiased opinions, its human nature, for some people this might be the most expensive camera they ever bought and can't bring themselves to see faults or the opposite some people have absolutely zero interest in owning or using this camera but they keep posting opinions to validate what they purchased to want to purchase. I just want to be able recreate the issue during testing so I can avoid it when shooting
 
Ray, if you can get someone who has seen on the problem on their camera to post ALL their settings or send me a Camera Profile file that I can load into my FS5 I'll try to find the time to do some testing. But otherwise, it is pointless for me to waste time on it.
 
Doug Jensen said:
Ray, if you can get someone who has seen on the problem on their camera to post ALL their settings or send me a Camera Profile file that I can load into my FS5 I'll try to find the time to do some testing. But otherwise, it is pointless for me to waste time on it.
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I will try, admittedly I don't think I have the skill or patience for testing... I can confirm the issue is not from auto white balance :)
 
maxjw said:
Yes exactly, it should show up live on the camera monitor the same (without recording or with recording). The focus mag really shows it clearly.
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I guess I could be wrong but I am 99% sure what we are seeing on the Sony LCD isn't what we are getting on the memory card, with focus mag at x4 it looks really bad x8 is unusable
at 4x on the LCD I get all kinds of crazy stair steeping and smear/lag (not sure how to describe it) but can't find it on the recorded images
 
Yes please if someone could post ALL their settings & or post their Camera Profile file so we can get to the bottom of this.

So far it appears from the threads that there might be one or two settings causing this issue. Otherwise its a quality control issue from Sony due to releasing the FS5 too early from such high demand.

One thing I have in my favour is i have ordered this camera in and there will be a number of FS5's in stock for me to check (after the holiday season) so I can check how many cameras this issue shows up on.
 
Doug Jensen said:
Correct. And that's exactly what I tried to get clear back in post #66 several days ago. I was told the settings didn't matter, so if that's the attitude someone has, they clearly know nothing about troubleshooting and I'm not going to waste any of my time looking into it further.
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Thats a poor representation Doug. I didnt say settings don't matter. I said it happens in all settings. I've gone through and tweaked every white balance setting, picture profile parameter etc. That's all I was saying. It's disingenuous to suggest that I was saying settings don't matter. I appreciate you trying to recreate the issue though. It's just exhausting to re-explain things that have been already thoroughly described e.g it's not post workflow, it shows on the camera monitor, uncompressed hdmi, xavc internal etc.
 
I apologize that I haven't been more helpful in recreating the issue. I'll follow up with more tests, setting details, when I'm back in the office.
 
maxjw said:
Thats a poor representation Doug. I didnt say settings don't matter. I said it happens in all settings. I've gone through and tweaked every white balance setting, picture profile parameter etc. That's all I was saying. It's disingenuous to suggest that I was saying settings don't matter. I appreciate you trying to recreate the issue though. It's just exhausting to re-explain things that have been already thoroughly described e.g it's not post workflow, it shows on the camera monitor, uncompressed hdmi, xavc internal etc.
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last post because its pretty clear they are not being read anyway.

What you see on the camera monitor is not what is being recorded to the memory card (at least on the 2 FS5's I am testing with, mine and my friends) the Sony LCD clearly shows stair stepping in straight lines, looks like extreme aliasing from line skipping... not getting that in the recorded image.

also some of these "tests" are extreme crops on a 4k timelines... wouldn't your NLE upsize them back to 3840x2160 size? My stills camera shoots stunning 7320x5384 images but if I crop them way down and resize back to 7320x5384 they start to look pretty poor. So far the only way I can recreate the fs5 issues consistently is to place them on a 4k timeline crop the heck out off them and export. If I watch uncropped or slightly cropped video from the fs5 4 feet away on my 65 inch 4k TV I see no artifacts that I would consider out of the ordinary for any 8 bit file... actually looks really good regardless of what bit it is... really good. The image shown on my Atoms Shogun magnified looks leaps and bounds better than the line skipping look of the Sony LCD at x4 (this is something I Wish Sony could take a look at, the magnify function is so bad it makes it a little harder to focus with)

I get different results if I import direct to FCPX, use EditReady to PRoRes then import, or Sony Catalyst

Has anyone tested if the "lens correction" function or IOS has any effect? I used a manual Zeiss 50mm for my test with lens correction turned off and it has no IOS
 
Just did extensive testing on the FS5 trying to reproduce the problems some are seeing.

Here is a long boring video but if you are investigating this you may want to watch. You can download the original UHD file loaded to Vimeo but that is not the same as original it is compressed about ten fold. Contact me directly if you want the direct out of camera file or the simultaneously recorded Odyssey O7Q+ file I will provide those if you like.

This is only the internal UHD file, frankly I see almost no difference in the ProRes version from the 07Q+.

The profile I used is a new one I made, partly because I am having some issues with FCPX clipping above 100ire. So I used CINE2 in this test, I do state in the video it is CINE1 and that is wrong. Though CINE one is very similar it allows up to 109ire.

Anyway this shows iso 800,1600 and 3200 with some custom settings in my PP3

These settings are:
Gamma CINE2
Black Gamma: Middle -4
Sat: +4
Color: Cinema
Detail: -7

Everything else standard PP3 settings.

The interesting thing is the Odyssey file is the same on the scopes and noise vise there is very little difference. If you want to see the O7Q+ file contact me, the vimeo compression will delete any difference.

I am viewing this both on a TOL iMac and an Eval Monitor, not a TV the Eval monitor is a professional piece of equipment and it shows a very true picture and the video is fed by a SDI out from my UltraStudio for Thunderbolt.

 
starcentral said:
All I see are defects on any portion of the black border of the color chart, the rest of the image looks mighty fine.
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I don't think those are defects, the border is made of bumpy shiny plastic that reflects a bit of light that makes it look like noise. What I see there is not moving it is stationary so I think it is the reflection.

I can send you the original files if you contact me. Both internal and O7Q+ ProRes422.

I am just trying to figure out what is going on here.
 
Mitch Gross said:
Might be interesting to shoot both internal & Odyssey in both S-Log modes. Correct them equally in post and then compare.
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Look at all the horizontal surfaces when they move. It's clear the smearing artifacts. Only in cine, external or internally recorded.The F5, Fs7, don't do this. None of Sony's recent cameras do.

Noisy/over compressed slog is one thing, but this is a worse issue in my eyes... and is separate.
 
Nirv said:
It could be a hardware problem traced to a batch of FS5s but equally it could all units are affected and that those who are experiencing the problem have their FS5s set up in a particular way and those that don't may have a slightly different setup which does not reproduce the fault. It could be the tiniest setting change that is causing the affected units to exhibit the fault.

If I were a Sony engineer trying to get to the bottom of this fault I'd like to see an awful lot more information about camera setup, i.e the full camera set up from the lens to gain settings to WB settings etc etc of those affected cameras. I currently have only seen videos of the problem which doesn't help locating the bug other than to show there is a bug. The more information you can share may shed light on a particular area of your setup that differs from a so far unaffected camera.

I have battled with Sony and a UK dealer over a very serious bug in a previous camera and the only way I got them to listen and take action was to provide a comprehensive set of notes and video detailing the fault so it was impossible for them to give me the brush off, which was exactly what they tried at the beginning.
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Correct. SO simply: Turn on camera, set to QFHD/24, use PPX (I forget which is Cine off the top of my head out of the box... 6?) - point at any scene with horizontal surfaces, make sure histogram is not clipped on the right, and hit record. Move camera slightly up and down. Look at how horizontal lines shimmer, and close up you will see what looks like pixels smearing in a delayed fashion along the lines, with large macro blocks at the junction. Repeat same exact test but use PP7 or PP8. The issue goes away.
 
starcentral said:
All I see are defects on any portion of the black border of the color chart, the rest of the image looks mighty fine.
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Look at the wood desk/counter to the left middle of the frame when he moves the camera around. Also the top of the charts. (In cine)
 
Paul, just wondering if you've had a chance to follow up with Dan Chung about this? It would be great if this could get some additional coverage as a different problem than the codec noise issue that was discussed earlier.
 
NeedCreative said:
Correct. SO simply: Turn on camera, set to QFHD/24, use PPX (I forget which is Cine off the top of my head out of the box... 6?) - point at any scene with horizontal surfaces, make sure histogram is not clipped on the right, and hit record. Move camera slightly up and down. Look at how horizontal lines shimmer, and close up you will see what looks like pixels smearing in a delayed fashion along the lines, with large macro blocks at the junction. Repeat same exact test but use PP7 or PP8. The issue goes away.
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I'm failing to take you seriously.

Still no attempt to share the full settings of the camera or even a setup file for others to try.
 
Nirv said:
I'm failing to take you seriously.

Still no attempt to share the full settings of the camera or even a setup file for others to try.
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I find an attack on my integrity insulting and uncalled for. I'm just trying to help. Buy the camera, take it out of the box, turn it on, and do what I said. I modified nothing. There are your settings.

I'm finished here... Good luck everyone.
 
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