FS5: "New tests show Sony FS5 macro-blocking and noise issues when recording 4K internally
- Thread starter Bern Caughey
- Start date
I would never use straight out of the box factory settings, but this is still terrible for those that do.
Wondering why camera makers don't charge half price up front for feedback and then the next half for the 1st firmware update :thumbsup: you guys are doing all the real world testing for them.
But what about the Picture Profile factory settings i.e PP8: Slog3 with SGamut3.Cine in 4K ? Hows the macro blocking and noise in those?
Im yet to pick my camera up, and have 2 broadcast productions coming up, this forum is great, thanks to you guys i will definitely not risk shooting in 4K.
Wondering why camera makers don't charge half price up front for feedback and then the next half for the 1st firmware update :thumbsup: you guys are doing all the real world testing for them.
But what about the Picture Profile factory settings i.e PP8: Slog3 with SGamut3.Cine in 4K ? Hows the macro blocking and noise in those?
Im yet to pick my camera up, and have 2 broadcast productions coming up, this forum is great, thanks to you guys i will definitely not risk shooting in 4K.
Same here. I took the camera out of the box and hooked it up to a 4K monitor. The macro blocking shows in 4K in all but the log profiles above ISO 1600 (I used the kit lens without lens correction but with image stabilizer turned on). It shows on horizontal lines with rather soft contrast when slowly tilting the camera up and down. There is no problem with panning. It is somehow directional. It is by the way nothing one would consider bad image quality, it is clearly a fault in the image processing (like the black spot problem in some other cameras). So I'm very positive Sony is going to solve this soon with a software update. As it is at the moment the camera is not working properly and when you see it there is no debating it, it is too obvious and nothing that could be mended in post.
Nirv
Carbonite Member
Bye.
For the avoidance of doubt there was no attack on anyone's integrity I just question whether you have the motivation to methodically work through and isolate the bug and assist others who are going out of their way to try and help e.g Olof. Had it occurred to you that other people may not be using factory settings and therefore unable to replicate the fault and providing your settings it would've meant everyone was working from the same datum?
Thankfully glnf posted rather more useful information that seems to indicate gain/ISO is a factor also that all gamma curves are affected except Log not just Cine as previously stated and that it is low contrast horizontals are of particular interest. This would explain why Olof's tests did not provided any clear cut evidence as his test scene was contrasty and he did not tilt the camera up and down much.
glnf states gain above 1600 is a contributing factor but does it get worse with gain and what other factors may be at play? What effect does noise reduction or sharpening have on the image maybe turn any sharpening and noise reduction off? There could be an issue where there two settings are fighting against each other also with the aliasing not happening in Log mode what is the camera not doing when in Log mode?
Doug Jensen
Carbonite Member
Yeah, baby. That's how you troubleshoot to get to the root of a problem.
TheShooter
New member
I was literally just about to buy one of these and came across this thread. Starting to lose faith but i'm hoping this is something Sony can fix. Just hard to pull the trigger not knowing if it can be yet. Has anyone spoken to anyone at Sony on the phone about this yet with any success? Starting to regret selling my FS700 now haha.
Some people over at DVinfo forum are speculating that this is indeed a hardware problem and not a firmware issue. Which would not be good at all. Hoping Sony doesn't ignore this!
Some people over at DVinfo forum are speculating that this is indeed a hardware problem and not a firmware issue. Which would not be good at all. Hoping Sony doesn't ignore this!
HTML:
http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/sony-xdcam-pxw-fs7-fs5/530678-fs5-macro-blocking-codec-issue-4k-4.html
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jcskeeter
Well-known member
-this.I just did some testing with my fs5 on a large tv and I found three gammas that look excellent in 4K. Rec709 800%, slog2 and slog 3. In my opinion this will cover most any shooting situation with these. They looked completely usable to about 6400 and pretty decent even up to 10,000. The other gammas, the blocky mess on some edges is very apparent, but completely gone on the three mentioned above. Worth taking a look for yourselves, but I feel much better knowing there is a gamma outside of slog that looks great at 4K.
gaffney film
Active member
It's refreshing when people look for and find what works. Too many pixel peepers looking for problems - which invariably show up when you exclude things like light and proper exposure...
Do you realize the contradiction of praising constructive feedback, while completely dismissing the people who are reporting the issue to begin with as pixel peepers who aren't using the camera properly? The hypocrisy is incredible.
I agree it's important to learn ways around the issue, but lots of people shoot using Cine profiles. We use forums like these to find common ground and gain awareness for issues. When the dust is settled, Sony will need to find a solution to this because it's a serious bug, and it's not just something that compulsive pixel peepers see. I love the FS5, but this glitch isn't even acceptable in a point-and-shoot camera.
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You abviously don't own a FS5. The issue has nothing to do with pixel peeping, it is a clear defect of the camera that turns it useless in many situations. We're not talking a bit of noise here but strong and impossible to miss artefacts. Check it out yourself if you are interested in the problem. I'm looking forward to read your verdict.
Nirv
Carbonite Member
This is nothing more than speculation that does nothing to advance the discourse and only Sony engineers would actually know the answer. Given the firmware developments that other cameras have received since launched I could also speculate that it would be quite within Sony's ability to fix any issue. See how easy it is?
The missing part of the discourse is the investigation into mitigating factors backed up with documentary evidence, are there any settings that alleviate the macro blocking? Are all PPs affected in the same way (except Slog) if not which is the best? Does the Detail setting have any effect? Does the macro blocking occur when the camera is in the lowest gain setting for the PP? Is there a recipe for a usable PP that workarounds the issue while waiting for a firmware update?
gaffney film
Active member
I have it, shot tests with it and have no issues that will prevent me from getting what I need out of the camera. If I planned to blow everything up 400% and slow it down 25%, I'm sure I'd have problems too.
I posted the test results, while yes there is a clear defect in shooting 4K in most gammas I thought it would be helpful to post that there is in fact a gamma outside of log that works just fine. I actually really liked the look of 709 800% too. It's a fine camera that was a good jump ahead of my c100 in feature set and for a moment I was a bit nervous thinking 4K was completely unusable. It is requiring some slight work around, but I would have purchased the camera again knowing this. I was having a bit of buyers remorse as I wanted to do some filming in 4K, but again I think having those three healthy gammas will cover any of shooting situations. At least now it can be used until we see what Sony will do about it instead of saying "it's just a an HD camera", but thats not the case. 4K looks excellent even to high iso's in those three I mentioned.
Bottom line, don't dismiss this camera! It offers some amazing features and at a great price point.
Bottom line, don't dismiss this camera! It offers some amazing features and at a great price point.
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I played around with a lot settings within the bad gammas, but saw no change be adjusting them. I did mention though that 709 800% looks fantastic. I'm actually quite surprised that folks with the fs5 didn't do the same test before encouraging other folks to stay away from the camera. Took me all about 20 minutes to test them out.
Argonauta69
New member
Swaany, where did you post your results for the useful gammas?
I did the same exact test on my Sony 4K tv.
I find these 3 PP to have no issue in low and loads of light with macro blocking.
I wish I could use Cine game in 4k since it's comparable to the Wide DR that I used on my C100's.
olof
DVXuser Sponsor
OK I can now reproduce the problem reliable, after extensive pixel peeping and I found the best way to spot the problem. I use my Odyssey O7Q+ in UHD and go pixel to pixel or even 2 to 1. This way I can see the effect w/o going back and forth downloading to my edit suite.
It took a long time for me to even spot this problem as I was working on developing PPs and test shooting outdoors and studio setups. I never saw it in any of my footage. I really had to work at it but now I can see it clearly and reproduce it. I will contact Sony and send them the video below that shows what is happening very clearly.
So my conclusions are:
It is a very special circumstance that causes the problem. A high contrast level edge slightly out of focus moving up and down slowly, fast is fine. In focus seems better but sometimes shows up.
It is interesting that it is not every frame, just some frames, others are fine, and rarely are there 2 bad ones in a row.
It happens UHD in all the CINE gammas 1-4 at 3200 iso and up. It can be seen but rarely at 1600 iso.
All other Gammas are fine in my tests.
It does not happen in HD.
Noise Reduction settings make no difference at all, I tried all the variations.
All my tests were in 29.97.
So here is a short video it is ¼ of an UHD, so it is pixel to pixel viewed in HD. I can see this in reference monitors and on my Mac screens, so it is not the same noise you sometimes see in a computer screen when the GPU is overwhelmed.
My bottom line is the 5 is a great camera, but it has a definite problem with CineGammas in UHD at iso 3200 and up, but this will only show up in fairly rare circumstances, at least the way I shoot. Hopefully Sony will look into this and correct it. It can be fixed in post if you get it in a shot and it needs to be used, just do a tracking blur over the affected area with soft edges. It is not stopping me from using Cinegammas at 3200, I will just be aware of what may happen in some rare circumstances.
Anyway Happy New Year to everyone. These are interesting times...
It took a long time for me to even spot this problem as I was working on developing PPs and test shooting outdoors and studio setups. I never saw it in any of my footage. I really had to work at it but now I can see it clearly and reproduce it. I will contact Sony and send them the video below that shows what is happening very clearly.
So my conclusions are:
It is a very special circumstance that causes the problem. A high contrast level edge slightly out of focus moving up and down slowly, fast is fine. In focus seems better but sometimes shows up.
It is interesting that it is not every frame, just some frames, others are fine, and rarely are there 2 bad ones in a row.
It happens UHD in all the CINE gammas 1-4 at 3200 iso and up. It can be seen but rarely at 1600 iso.
All other Gammas are fine in my tests.
It does not happen in HD.
Noise Reduction settings make no difference at all, I tried all the variations.
All my tests were in 29.97.
So here is a short video it is ¼ of an UHD, so it is pixel to pixel viewed in HD. I can see this in reference monitors and on my Mac screens, so it is not the same noise you sometimes see in a computer screen when the GPU is overwhelmed.
My bottom line is the 5 is a great camera, but it has a definite problem with CineGammas in UHD at iso 3200 and up, but this will only show up in fairly rare circumstances, at least the way I shoot. Hopefully Sony will look into this and correct it. It can be fixed in post if you get it in a shot and it needs to be used, just do a tracking blur over the affected area with soft edges. It is not stopping me from using Cinegammas at 3200, I will just be aware of what may happen in some rare circumstances.
Anyway Happy New Year to everyone. These are interesting times...