FS5: "New tests show Sony FS5 macro-blocking and noise issues when recording 4K internally
- Thread starter Bern Caughey
- Start date
Do you have some samples from your FS5? I keep reading how bad they can be and want to see if I can replicate the issues thanks
Doug Jensen
Carbonite Member
The FS5 definitely has an Auto White Balance mode, but the real question is, why the hell would a professional want to use it? Who needs colors that drift from shot to shot or even change during a shot?
NeedCreative
Well-known member
I assume you meant FS7. Yes I noticed its there too albeit very minor. Cleaner with Shogun.
NeedCreative
Well-known member
thats all that matters. It's not a BAD camera at all. It's actually quite nice if you work within its limits. It's just priced oddly I think compared to the FS7 given the capabilities spread.
NeedCreative
Well-known member
So the moral of the story is
1) News Shooter doesn't actually test for themselves just repost stuff they find on the web (this is actually good to know)
2) the smaller sensor in the fs5 isn't as good as the full frame sensor in the A7... I wouldn't have expected anything else
3) shooting and grading SLOG from internal 8 bit isn't the best idea, especially with noise in the underexposed areas... figured that was common knowledge
4) grading SLOG with Filmconvert seems questionable, I don't really think it maters at all but do they even have the fs5 as an optional camera? (another variable)
Things that bug me about the FS5
1) no freaking waveform!
2) no waveform or even histogram in S&Q mode
3) I can't change the ISO in Super Slow motion or shutter from the grip but without a histogram I guess thats a moot point
4) can't program a grip button for AF on
5) can't rename my tweaked picture profiles
6) I shoot outside often and wish I could have just auto WB (not auto cam) for those days when the clouds are rolling past
7) really should have kept the tabs ion the LCD, would have been nice to add a light weight loupe
The things I like list would be long so I will just say I am happy with the camera, going to be nice having such a small form factor but without giving up button controls (I dislike going into menus when Im shooting)
The S35 mode never mind the FF of the A7RII Has far, far smaller photosites on it compared to the F5 sensor given its an 8k sensor and the F5 sensor is 4K. So the F5 sensor (inside the F5, FS7, FS5) has much more physical light gathering capability than the A7RII. That's the point. It should be cleaner than the A7RII not noisier. People seem to forget how much smaller the photosites are on the A7RII. Full frame has nothing to do with it.
The he test was also done with Cine and it showed similar noise. The raw footage was also shown at the end with no grading and the differences in noise were quite clear. I agree with the rest of your complaints and won't even address the snide remark about the people at Newsshooter except to say Dan tests a ton on his own too. He in fact was one of the first to review the camera himself.
nyvz
Veteran
Larger photosites != light gathering ability
More, smaller pixels is often just as good and sometimes better than fewer, larger pixels. Especially if the smaller pixels have a better design such as the A7RII BSI. Tests have shown A7RII S35 performance is quite similar to A7SII FF, so it's not surprising the FS5 can't quite keep up with those.
starcentral
Veteran
When you pixel bin, ie. 4 pixels together you gain back any sensitivity that may have been lost. So it's not clear cut.
This is how HFR works on the FS7/F5/F55, otherwise you'd introduce far more gain for the light that's lost with such hugger frame rates.
Bottom line is Sony cheaped out on FS5 processing or programming and hopefully they fix it otherwise it's an overpriced HD camera.
This is how HFR works on the FS7/F5/F55, otherwise you'd introduce far more gain for the light that's lost with such hugger frame rates.
Bottom line is Sony cheaped out on FS5 processing or programming and hopefully they fix it otherwise it's an overpriced HD camera.
Bern Caughey
Veteran
"Just to confirm that the issue wasn’t limited to just one camera I also asked Newsshooter contributor Slavik Boyechko to run similar tests on his FS5. The results were the same and you can see some grabs below. The lower image is a blow-up of the first and shows the macro-blocking well."
-Dan Chung
http://www.newsshooter.com/2015/12/...nd-noise-issues-when-recording-4k-internally/
NeedCreative
Well-known member
Yeah. I guess it's a bit confusing.
looking at the firmware update it operates exactly the same way as the A7's. Same downloader, same method of hooking up to USB. Looks nothing like the FS7/F5 firmware update process. It seems that the FS5 is driven by the exact same processing as inside an A7S.
Even more of a head scratcher then as those cameras look so good. Now we KNOW the sensor is not that noisy on this camera. The recorded output from the HDMI is pretty clean through ISO 12,800 in 4K, whereas the max usable internally recorded is really 3200. There's something going on specifically with the processing just on this camera that is amiss. And I know they were told about this. Perhaps if enough people complain they will change it. After all they did add NR (soon will) to Cine EI on FS7. They did solve overheat issue on A7RII and add uncompressed Raw. As much as it seems that Sony doesn't listen they actually seem to in some respects. It just takes a lot of time.
NeedCreative
Well-known member
Yes. Sorry you're probably right.
Except the SENSOR on the FS5 sure can keep up... When recorded externally (I tested this and it's in the video.) It's the internal
recording that is the problem. Whatever processing they are applying in 4K recording internally limits it really to ISO 3200. Amazing.
I thought I was pretty clear, but here it is again.
I find myself shooting sporting events (both amateur and pro) outside in the sun ...often times the clouds are rolling over so every 20-40 seconds (sun shade sun shade) the WB going in and out is very distracting. With my other Sony cameras (while not perfect) auto WB is preferable to have the color wrong half the time, also when I gimbal from indoors to outside I will use not only auto WB but full auto. These are the two special situations I feel auto can be best, normally (98.9%) I do not just with the Kelvin dial but with your WarmCards... and on that note I don't think "why in the hell" is the best why to communicate with your customers or potential customers, not only do I own a couple sets of your Warmcards but when I work with other people I request they purchase some (and when the FS100 and 700 were new I had them order your DVDs as well) I know I went off topic but I have read more than a few of your snarky comments and I just find it so odd coming from someone who's only purpose here is to move product. I was only worth a couple hundred a year, nothing to worry about but what about the other ones who didn't take the time to tell you? Not a huge deal, but so much of what I do is sales I just couldn't let it go.
It comes down to S/N ratio. All things equal, larger pixels have better S/N. Four smaller pixels binned could gather the same light as one larger pixel, but the S/N ratio is not improved by binning.
Doug Jensen
Carbonite Member
Ray, thanks for the feedback. I appreciate your business but I don't censor my comments out of fear I will offend someone, even though it was certainly not my intention to offend. Sorry if you took it that way. I speak my mind and I honestly don't care if that costs me business or not That is not how I work. For every person who doesn't want to hear that auto WB is for consumer cameras, there may be someone else who will see the folly in their ways. That's why I speak up to disagree sometimes, because someone has to say something for the benefit of the less experienced who may be reading these threads. If that comes across as snarky, so be it. I don't have the time to stop and explain why someone is doing something wrong. And yes, I said WRONG. I don't buy into this attitude that everyone's methods are valid if that's what they like. Maybe for cosnumers, but not for professionals, there are standards to uphold and correct and incorrect ways of doing things. If comments like the one you made go by with no challenge, then people may assume that is an acceptable way of working. Auto WB is crap. I've seen it on other Sony cameras and I've seen it already on the FS5 in the testing I'm doing for the training video I'm working on. You can see the colors drift right in front of your eyes during panning. Awful stuff that could never be fixed in post.
There is no need to constantly be changing WB outdoors anyway. I haven't shot anything outdoors in natural light that wasn't on a 5800-6000K preset since I got rid of my last Betacam. Yeah, sometimes the light is cooler or warmer. So what? That's the way it was naturally. It's the film-style of shooting. You had one film stock for outdoor shooting in natural light and you left it alone. There is absolutly no need to re-white balance constantly in natural light -- let alone allowing the camera do it randomly right in the middle of shots. You think NFL Films or the broadcast networks are running on auto WB? Heck no.
If you think "my only purpose posting here is to move product", you couldn't be more mistaken. And while I appreciate your effort to further explain your way of work, I do not appreciate the personal attack about my motives or how I should censor myself. That's not what DVXuser is supposed to about it, is it?
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Not personal attack and obviously never asked you to censor yourself, I am honestly sorry if it sounded that way to you. Again I really thought I was crystal clear that the the only reason this even stood out for me was that my business is largely sales and because I have always worked in sales.... and again your tone is less than pleasant and certainly not professional, example "AWB is crap" Really? you feel thats the way a grown man has a discussion with a stranger? not a big deal, just seems weird and would often be seen as confrontational. Just so its clear for you its not that you disagree with me or what you are saying, its the way you say things that caught my attention... personally or professionally I would never expect to have a constructive conversation containing the words "why the hell" with a total stranger.
I am not sure what the issue is with me saying you sold product here. We will just have to agree to disagree on that one, towards the end of your reply to me you plugged your upcoming FS5 training video (looks like you even sold one) I really like your Warmcards, and I am positive I found out about them and the FS100 DVD from you in one of your posts or comments here. I have no problem with it at all, I think it would be great if Sony had someone in the forum I get most of my product info here anyway.
Just want to be super clear on this, I was talking about AWB for only a very small and special situation two situations actually, one sun and clouds rolling over and the other situation were I follow someone with a gimbal from indoor to outside in full auto (I almost never park in one spot, nothing says old school like staying in one static shot for too long) OPTIONS I could park it, or if it was a scripted shoot I would have an extra person on the gimbal making the necessary changes (best option but isn't going to happen at an event), I could try and walk, shoot and finger out some changes to the manual settings causing the camera to dance or I could toss it into auto for a clip or two and roll my shot... obviously I will change back to the ideal setting as soon as possible. I will use every tool I am given if it helps me, and I will test things and try settings and profiles that I really don't even agree with, cameras change so fast nowadays I just can't see someone being so locked into one way of doing anything... A year ago I would never bothered with even trying autofocus, and lately I am thinking I will start using it a bit by tapping the AF on button in certain circumstances... the face detection seems to work pretty well
Doug Jensen
Carbonite Member
Ray, no harm done. We're cool. I guess we just have different styles of communicating and shooting, that's all. I shake your hand electronically.
chappelldigital
Well-known member
Bigger question -> does the new firmware change anything to do with the 4K macro-blocking ugliness?
Huge disappointment 4K internal recording + monitor means no on-camera screen. If you want to do an interview in 4K with a client monitor, you'd have to set up your own monitor w/loop through and send that to another monitor.... :\ PITA
Huge disappointment 4K internal recording + monitor means no on-camera screen. If you want to do an interview in 4K with a client monitor, you'd have to set up your own monitor w/loop through and send that to another monitor.... :\ PITA
This shows weird behaviour from the codec in the FS5. As you can see there's barely any movement in the frame... I really don't think it should be showing signs of struggling to handle the image.
3200ISO in UHD @ 100Mbit, firmware 1.1.
https://vimeo.com/149878142
3200ISO in UHD @ 100Mbit, firmware 1.1.
https://vimeo.com/149878142