FS5: "New tests show Sony FS5 macro-blocking and noise issues when recording 4K internally

I have both the FS5 and the FS7. I love both of them. The 5 is the perfect Bcam to the FS7.

I have made a few tests with the FS5 and FS7 side by side in UHD, and if exposed correctly they look identical.

I have not been able to reproduce the noisy edges others are reporting, I am not saying it is not real. I have just not seen it in my footage yet. So I think it is limited to high ISO somewhat shaky cam, possible a bit under exposed. I like so far to rate the FS5 at 1200 to 1600 in Slog (I use a light meter or an Odyssey with scopes to be exact in exposure when getting used to a camera, then I just use the histogram and zebra once I know how to expose) and 1000 in CINEgammas, it gets noisy from 3200 and up, but this can be toned down in post. For real low light I just use my A7s.

On slight glitch I have found in UHD FS5 footage is that in FCPX and in CatalystBrowse the footage on my Macs gets clipped at 100ire. This does not happen with the HD footage, so I hope this is just a meta tag in the footage that needs to be tweaked by Sony, I noticed this after I updated to 1.10 FW. It may have been there in 1.00 as well. But I am only now getting to testing the UHD and comparing to the FS7.

So I can just now say that everything I have shot so far in HD and UHD looks great and grades well for me anyway. I loved my C100 but IMHO this tiny Sony is far more usable and the codecs are far superior. The Vari ND and DigitalZoom are outstanding features.

Merry Christmas to everyone, don't eat too much, now I am off to drink some Glögg with the family.
 
olof said:
I like so far to rate the FS5 at 1200 to 1600 in Slog (I use a light meter or an Odyssey with scopes to be exact in exposure when getting used to a camera
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,
I'd like to learn how you do this exactly? The FS5 has a minimum ISO 3200 in Slog, so how do you rate it to 1200 or 1600? Just overexpose? Thanks.
 
I agree with Olof, I also am unable to recreate this problem no matter how hard I try -- right down to a yellow post it. I'm not going to speculate on why others are seeing it but I'd sure like to find out about ALL their camera settings, lenses, and workflow in post. Has anyone ever posted those details? Has anyone ruled out the lens, adapter, IS on the lens, IS on the camera, AF, or AE? My 4K footage looks as pristine as 100mbps 4K footage can be expected to look. Actually I'm surprised at how good it looks. It'd be great if someone could spell out a detailed recipe I could follow to recreate the problem in-camera and then in post.

EDit: Okay, I might be seeing it just a little bit in some shadow areas of one of my PP4 ISO3200 shots, but certainly not as bad as what others have posted. And I'm not going to be shooting with PP4 at 3200 anyway. Breaking the codec is one thing, breaking the codec in a realistic shooting scenario is something else. Kind of reminds me of a guy who wanted to show me the rolling shutter problems of the EX1 back in 2007 by shaking the camera back and forth as fast as he could! I'm not saying this is in that league, but it comes to mind. And I am not a fan of the FS5 for other reasons, so I'm not looking to blindly defend it. If the problem is there I'd really love to be able to recreate it in a real situation. Tips?
 
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And I am not a fan of the FS5 for other reasons, so I'm not looking to blindly defend it.

Hi Doug, what are the other reasons your not a fan of the FS5 if you don't mind saying here?
 
Unless it's a quality control issue it should show up on all FS5's. Shooting a cine profile at 3200 iso and above is not an unusual scenario. It's a very ugly looking artifact that isn't in the realm the FS5 just being a lower end camera than the FS7. There is a problem with the noise reduction algorithm on the FS5 in Cine modes and it's a serious flaw with this camera. It makes any footage with any vertical movement shot with those setting unusable. If you're shooting UHD under 3200 in high key settings, the FS5 UHD is lovely. I love everything else about the camera. But this is a glitch, and a fixable one i suspect with the way it only shows up in certain modes.
 
Thanks, but I've already heard all that. What specific settings and test conditions should I use to recreate the problem on my camera? And how should I view it in post to maximize the problem? Does the problem show up if you view right out of the camera from the SD cards? Anyone tried that?
 
No post required. Use the cine profile at 3200 or higher in uhd with any lens, color profile, shutter speed, aperture, stabilization setting, and point at anything with contast that isnt white, and you should see the spiky smearing when you punch in 4x with the focus mag and pan up and down when focused on an area of contrast in the frame.

And as we've been discussing, it appears direct from SD cards as well as when sent uncompressed through hdmi, and directly on the camera monitors.
 
Thanks Doug, i appreciate you trying to recreate the issue. Can you upload a sample?
 
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Nothing I want to post.
Are you saying earlier that I should be able to see it with focus mag? Even before recording?
 
Yes exactly, it should show up live on the camera monitor the same (without recording or with recording). The focus mag really shows it clearly.
 
maxjw said:
Yes exactly, it should show up live on the camera monitor the same (without recording or with recording). The focus mag really shows it clearly.
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Yep, I see it clear as day... only in Cine. This has to be a bug. It does not show up in Slog.

It ruined a lot of my xmas morning footage...

Screen Shot 2015-12-25 at 11.00.55 AM.jpg
 
A question I asked, on one online demo the cameras is stated as being 8 bit in 4k (internal and external recording) and its fixed at that but on another blog the blogger suggest a coming firmware update will allow 10 bit external recording.

Who to believe?
 
Vultch said:
A question I asked, on one online demo the cameras is stated as being 8 bit in 4k (internal and external recording) and its fixed at that but on another blog the blogger suggest a coming firmware update will allow 10 bit external recording.

Who to believe?
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I wouldn't hold my breath. Take that from an FS7 owner.
 
The 4K is 8 bit both internally as well as externally.

Internally it is 4:2:0 and I am presuming the same for external.

Ned
 
nsoltz said:
The 4K is 8 bit both internally as well as externally.

Internally it is 4:2:0 and I am presuming the same for external.

Ned
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Actually Externally Recorded UHD is 422 8bit. It works very well on my Odyssey 7Q+.

I have spent quite a bit of time playing with this and I can't reproduce the noise others are reporting here either internally recorded or on the O7Q+.

I posted samples in another thread here:
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?343091-Testing-Cine4-noise-at-iso3200-on-thin-lines

I am not at all saying others are not seeing the bad effects, I either have a better camera (by luck) or it has to do with exposure, PP settings and how you view your footage. I think the UHD Long GOP is very hard on GPUs and therefor a lot of strange noise can be seen on computer screens (I get that as well on my MBP), but all my tests on proper NTSC SDI Evaluation monitors is very clean. And that is what counts.
 
Olof in that sample you posted in the other thread, just below the horizontal line of the window is horrendous on my macbook pro screen. Lots of fluttering and dancing blocks. It's being a bit nit picky of course, and as you had mentioned it is a pretty low bit rate so what is to be expected?
 
olof said:
I think the UHD Long GOP is very hard on GPUs and therefor a lot of strange noise can be seen on computer screens (I get that as well on my MBP), but all my tests on proper NTSC SDI Evaluation monitors is very clean. And that is what counts.
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It's not related to the long GOP codec – it's quite easy to see in camera on focus magnification (before recording)... It seems that it shows up on all profiles at 9db+ of gain (which is around 3200ISO on cine gamma and quite a lot more on the LOG gammas).

I'm really intrigued. There are enough people (including myself) who are experiencing this issue that it's definitely a problem... but there are also a number of people who have no idea what everyone else is complaining about :-D It makes me wonder whether it's a hardware bug effecting only some units.
 
starcentral said:
Olof in that sample you posted in the other thread, just below the horizontal line of the window is horrendous on my macbook pro screen. Lots of fluttering and dancing blocks. It's being a bit nit picky of course, and as you had mentioned it is a pretty low bit rate so what is to be expected?
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Yes it is very compressed, equivalent to 25mb/s HD. And who really uses that any more?

This is no FS7 or F5/55 and it does not pretend to be. This is a tiny Grab and Shoot suited to Gimbals and Drones, but works well as a B cam to the FS7 as well IMHO.

But also bear in mind unless viewed properly (SDI Eval Monitor) you may be seeing additional noise. And the Vimeo has been recompressed twice...

That said it really looks very good even in UHD internal. Philip Bloom thinks so as well. Check his PB style review here:
http://philipbloom.net/blog/fs5doco/
 
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