New sony cam follows our beloved HVX

[TimurCivan]

avc intra?

 

[Justyn]

Anyone else see that footage on the apple site showing off the Red cam with Jarred in the background? Atleast I think it's him from... Amazing how you guys get around.


i also think that the Red cam looks too beautiful and pretty to bring onto location. Kind of like that new Cinealta...


Also.. what kind of a jackass report about hiding out and waiting for the right time to spring their Sony cam on the public. Or for people waiting for future stuff to begin with. My HVX has been paid off for a while... so it would have been stupid to have waited.. for what. The way I see it, I'd probably get 80 percent of my investment back now... if I jumped onto something else.. But I don't see that happenenging. Love the HVX.. but I would like to get a little pocket HD cam...

What's in the works?


Barry, did you see that new contraption by AJA.. That new FCP codec converter HD oor whatever it is.. Looks really impressive.

 

[sodotoguwangus]

I don't see why everybody has to bash this camera just cause it's better than the HVX.

 

[Kholi]

ROFL. I hope that wasn't a serious comment.

Please, point me to the footage if so. WOW

 

[mikkowilson]

I stopped by the Sony both (to check out some other gear [that I don't hink i'll be recomending either actully]) and listened to part of the presentation about this camera.

About half of the presentation was spent mudslinging "[some other HD memero card cameras]" with such stunning statements such as "[thanks to the superiror long GOP technology]" this thing beats the HVX. SINCE WHEN IS LONG GOP A "FEATURE"?!! A lot of the presenation was like that.

As they didn't seem to have any actual features to talk about - except the "fast mostion" and "slow motion" "efects" (I fear for what this will actually be, as the only framerates mentioned where 24,25,30,50 and good old 60.) - I found something better to do with my time than listen to their canned badmouthing and moved on.

- Mikko

 

[Simon Wyndham]

he said the top IT guy reccomended DLT or BRDiscs. And then the guy trashed BR discs.... and said storing Archived data on XDcam Discs is better.... So why dont we just store P2 on XDcam discs as data... which based on the inference is possible?

You can't store P2 on XDCAM discs because they are a different format. XDCAM discs are not general storage discs. Also Blu-Ray is a consumer format. XDCAM on the other hand are protected discs made more robustly than the consumer ones, and the system also features extensive error recovery and error correction systems in the extremely rare event that anything should go wrong.

About half of the presentation was spent mudslinging "[some other HD memero card cameras]"

Probably taking a leaf out of Panasonics book.

As they didn't seem to have any actual features to talk about - except the "fast mostion" and "slow motion" "efects"

If you read the infomration available such on on my site http://www.tapelessrev.com you'll find that it has full variable framerate. Sony have never been any good at PR.

 

[Simon Wyndham]

Hey, I say let's see it. I haven't seen a Sony camcorder since the PD150 that's been actually intriguing, but if they're learning and adapting and starting to produce the product that customers actually want, that can only be taken as good news.

Considering that demand is outsripping supply of the XDCAM disc based cameras I think it is obvious that people want that. Show me a freelancer who owns a shoulder mounted P2 camera.

finally Sony are all offering solid-state memory recording

Sony have never ruled it out. They even said as much in some of their earlier XDCAM literature. Just don't expect solid state on the higher end of the rage to replace the discs. Their strategy is very sound, and works.

they'll stop that and switch to an H.264 compression system. When they do, that will be a good day.

Why? Sony are sticking to MPEG 2 for the following reasons. The first is that they have got the art of MPEG2 compression down to a tee. They know that with MPEG2 they don't have the processing overheads of H264 and it is much easier for NLE makers to integrate. Also, apart from more compression efficiency at the acquisition stage, please inform what H264 can do that MPEG2 can't?

 

[Flash Beaver]

Taking a stab at it.

Taking a stab at it.

Let's look at it this way, there may be a day when Panasonic's HVX-whatever, is recording h264 vers 20 on Express Cards with a .002 cent label that says P2XP or something. At the same time you'll see a Sony Camera that uses express cards, but low and behold, it records XDCAMHD-264, or whatever they decide to call it.

If or when that day comes, I will have long since stopped using my HVX200 and all the data (footage) I shot on it will be sitting nicely on a handful of holographic nanodiscs with a 200 year shelf life. And all my hard drives will be sitting in a second hand store somewhere in rural Oregon.

Do I have a crystal ball? Nope, and neither do any of you.

I think the idea of a small 1/2" camcorder that takes solid state cards of any kind for under $10k is a great thing. But when I look at the Sony NAB power point slides and see the EX format down at the bottom of the food chain, with those clever fringes as it moves into mainstream TV, I can't help but wonder how a broadcaster will treat work acquired with this camera. Especially for those that are actually concerned by this.

Discovery, restricts the HVX200. Can any of you solidly tell me that they won't put some content percentage restriction on the new Sony EX? You can not! Do I really care what Discovery thinks? Not really. I don't have any plans of producing for them in the near future. When they want to contract me to produce something "for them" and "their way" then you can bet I will care very much.

But if a company likes our finished product, thinks it can sell nicely to their market and we've come to a good money agreement, it won't matter what HD format it was acquired on. If I've done my job as a photographer and producer, I know I will get paid.

Give me a slick brochure for a hot broadcast camera and I'll show you at least a dozen programs shooting pure dog crap using those same cameras.

The Sony EX offering I think is pretty damn cool in some ways but didn't really turn me on too much. Let me see a complete card based solution with a rugged field storage device and a real support phone number inside the manual for Sony Broadcast and you may get my attention.

At this stage in the Video/IT game, I'm glad to not be attached to any one storage format. You can preach the long term merits of XDCAM all day. I'll keep staring at my stack of Sony D2 and 1 inch masters gazing dustily back at me; comforted by the knowledge I can walk into any computer store or big retail chain in the free world, pick up a pair of Caviar 250's and be dumping my footage safe and sound for at least the next 3-5 years. After that, who knows. Like I said, I don't have a crystal ball.

So for now, I'll be standing out here on the river, happilly swapping my P2 cards for a while to come. If I have a problem I know the number to Pansonic Broadcast actually works and they'll take care of a little beaver like me. I know if I post a question to Jan she'll do her absolute best to respond and resolve.

I have an awesome HVX book to dig through and a killer support site to post on to. When Sony has all that for little guys like us they may actually earn my business.

Until then give me a bag full of Zylights, my upgrade to Motion 3 and a Merlin with a vest, and an HV20 and I'll call it good! Oh yeah, and a house on the beach, two new volkswagens and a foreign love slave would be nice too!

:bath:

See you at the top...

 

[Simon Wyndham]

Discovery, restricts the HVX200. Can any of you solidly tell me that they won't put some content percentage restriction on the new Sony EX?

No, I can't say for definite. But then the EX uses 1/2" chips and the same codec as the current XDCAM HD cameras which ARE accepted by Discovery. The HVX200 was restricted mainly because of the chip size. These sorts of problems will not be an issue for the EX.

 

[arrestthisman]

I have never like the picture from sony. Argue formats, blah blah blah... It all comes down to the image and the motion.

I've never liked em'. I think the F900 blows. There I said it. The motion is ALL off. It screams video. And yes I'm talking cinealta 24p. It's just not there.

Maybe this new cam will be different. But there is so much more to the overall quality than compression and glass. You just have to look at it.

I think the HVX200 images look like butter. And it's not about looking like film. It's about looking like CINEMA! Cinema has a very distinct quality to it. Even though all digital cinema IS video, video makes one think of TV, and interlaced pictures. etc.

I may be an HVX200 fanboy, but I'm not the only one to point out the panasonic seems to have the cinema look much better than the competition.

That said SI-2k samples look amazing. Good motion, everything.

I'm betting Red will be great to, but honestly. 4k or not (with all it has going for it), I haven't seen footage of the red yet. NATIVE footage. No matter how much better something is technically, it has to have the look you like. If the Red or anything else in that price range doesn't have that great cinema look, I'll go for something else. I know panasonic can pull it off. Si-2k can too. Red Maybe, don't know. But I'll take a camera with inferior specs with an image I like for the same money any day!

Hey some people don't like what I like. I'm not correct about this. It's subjective.
It's like PSP versus DS or any war. Specs are the smallest part of the story when push comes to shove. Barry? am I right?

RANT OVER.
need to stop drinking.

 

[Justyn]

I don't see why everybody has to bash this camera just cause it's better than the HVX.

Hey I got some swamp.. ahhh I mean land.. for you to buy. Sight unseen. Talk about brand loyalty when the cam or footie even isn't out.


Kind of like when people were saying that the cinevate adapter was the best.. and it wasn't out.. and still isn't out and all that.

Speculation is crap! Give me what's here and now and tangible. Besides it's just a personal choice anyway... and I hate the Sony's. Always have... Also seems so derivative.... Similar to Windows Vista.... could that be an OSX clone again.. hmm

 

[Flash Beaver]

No, I can't say for definite. But then the EX uses 1/2" chips and the same codec as the current XDCAM HD cameras which ARE accepted by Discovery. The HVX200 was restricted mainly because of the chip size. These sorts of problems will not be an issue for the EX.

Unfortunately, those two features alone do not neccessarily make this a killer camera or an "approved" camera. Sony's DSC-R1 still camera has an APS sensor but was still deficient compared to standard SLRs with like sensors. There is so much more once the chip hands the information off to the cameras back end. I'm not counting on Sony to place $20k in electronics into an $8k camera, but I'm not expecting everything to be rosy from the new EX either.

Sony still has a lot to prove to me before I'm going to lay down $8k or $35k and whore myself out to XDCAM format. Maybe good for you, but it certainly won't work for me, at least not now.

The only thing I can expect is a fatter meaner HVX down the road.

1/2" or not, I guess we'll all have to wait and see. It's still going to take more than a fat chip to slide me over. They've got to show a more finished package for solid state, and let's have a look at what it really pumps out footage wise.

 

[taormina]

I too have shot the Cinealta F900 for a week with a set of Zeiss digiprimes. The picture was pretty good....but honestly the HVX is not too far behind. Especially to the viewer.


Not sure about this johnny-come-latelty-cam they're putting out now. We'll have to wait and see.

 

[Simon Wyndham]

They've got to show a more finished package for solid state,

Not sure what you mean? Its an XDCAM which means it does everything all the other XDCAM cameras do in terms of workflow. Backup will be easy via PDZ-1 software (free with the equipment) to the U1 drive onto XDCAM discs. Easy.

When I get hold of a test model I'll be sure to do some test shots of my pet cat.

 

[David Saraceno]

The Sony isn't shipping yet. It has some attractive features.

The point is, however, that competition fosters innovation, and that in turn fosters more features, and better values in these tools.

Every HVX user should welcome announcements like this.

How can the new Sony possibly hurt the end user of a HVX200?

 

[Simon Wyndham]

How can the new Sony possibly hurt the end user of a HVX200?

If you look closely at pictures of the EX you will see a slot behind the XDCAM writing. This houses a tongue that flips out at the flick of a button and makes a sound that goes "Nah nah nah!" and makes users of other cameras cry.

 

[mrWr0ng]

It's like PSP versus DS or any war. Specs are the smallest part of the story when push comes to shove. Barry? am I right?

Haha this is very true. Both the PSP and the PS3 beat out all the competitors in specs. But innovation beat them both. It isn't always about the specs, it's about how the product gets used.

 

[Flash Beaver]

Not sure what you mean? Its an XDCAM which means it does everything all the other XDCAM cameras do in terms of workflow. Backup will be easy via PDZ-1 software (free with the equipment) to the U1 drive onto XDCAM discs. Easy.

When I get hold of a test model I'll be sure to do some test shots of my pet cat.

Yes, definitely shoot the pet cat. And hey! If you do it like the Nokia 3650 phone video commercial with the cat on the ceiling fan, 10 extra points to you!!!

What I'm specifically referring to is how I'm going to capture and process in the field, when I don't have a powerbook, an external XDCAM drive and some discs handy and available and I don't want to own 15 cards.

As for Sony's solid state participation. I feel like its the old chicken and the pig anology. Sony is involved but Panasonic is committed. When I move up to the 500 or higher I know my flow isn't going to change and I won't be forced into XDCAM media.

I'm sure you probably have 15 different ways to explain why this may not be so. Your format of choice may be the next best thing since corn in a can, but just make it safe to say at this time I really don't have an economic or technical incentive to acquire or offer a proprietary disc format.

When I came back into this business, the fact that I wasn't forced into a proprietary medium was a big motivating factor. I speak from past experience on this.

When I look at your demo reel I see some awesome work. Whether you were shooting XDCAM or P2 changes nothing of your talent, or anyone else's. If there's any point I can make stick it would be this.

I will NEVER snub anybody's content based on how it was shot. Format snobs should have been rounded up and shot by firing squad in the 90s. Everybody needs to get paid for their QUALITY work, regardless of format. Bring some kick ass footage, that's well shot on HDV, XDCAM HD or DVCPRO100 and we'll work with it.

Likewise for the kind of work we do here, I'll take the Pepsi challenge with our HVX service against a shoulder cam wielding Portlander any day.

One way or another, people are going to have to make nice and accept both formats for what they are. Good or bad. People are going to have to ingest each other's
material when its called for. Colors will have to be matched, and "looks" reproduced.

 

[Simon Wyndham]

I will NEVER snub anybody's content based on how it was shot. Format snobs should have been rounded up and shot by firing squad in the 90s. Everybody needs to get paid for their QUALITY work, regardless of format.

You are correct there. I would much rather just have a forum somewhere on the net that bans all discussion of camera formats. But I stick around here because there are a lot of myths going around. Although I am rather puzzled by the following comment that you made if you use P2 on an HVX200...

What I'm specifically referring to is how I'm going to capture and process in the field, when I don't have a powerbook, an external XDCAM drive and some discs handy and available and I don't want to own 15 cards.

Surely for P2 in the field you need the same considerations, except you have to do things more manually (ie backup to lots of DVDs or BluRay, or banks of hard drives, or take a P2 store with you). The difference with the EX is that the other parts of the line and the workflow is already established, so it just slots in and the archive and backup media is proven to withstand a lot of punishment.

When I came back into this business, the fact that I wasn't forced into a proprietary medium was a big motivating factor. I speak from past experience on this.

I am also puzzled by this. I know Hoodman are now making cards, but really P2 is a proprietry Panasonic format. Until now you have had to buy Panasonic P2 cards. XDCAM by contrast with the discs may be a Sony development, but there are now four manufacturers (Sony, Fuji, Maxell, and TDK) making the discs, and the Express Cards are totally off the shelf technology.

I'll take the Pepsi challenge with our HVX service against a shoulder cam wielding Portlander any day.

And good on you. But we need to seperate the discussion about camera quality (which I don't really care much about because all cameras these days are pretty much equal to other cameras in their respective price ranges) with talks about workflow and cost of ownership.

Whichever piece of equipment someone wishes to buy is up to them. I'm just here to correct technical points rather than to get into a 'a format is better than b'. I know it comes across that I do sometimes, but at the end of the day I try to do it in a factually based way rather than as a pissing match.

 

[Flash Beaver]

Surely for P2 in the field you need the same considerations, except you have to do things more manually (ie backup to lots of DVDs or BluRay, or banks of hard drives, or take a P2 store with you). The difference with the EX is that the other parts of the line and the workflow is already established, so it just slots in and the archive and backup media is proven to withstand a lot of punishment.

I am also puzzled by this. I know Hoodman are now making cards, but really P2 is a proprietry Panasonic format. Until now you have had to buy Panasonic P2 cards. XDCAM by contrast with the discs may be a Sony development, but there are now four manufacturers (Sony, Fuji, Maxell, and TDK) making the discs, and the Express Cards are totally off the shelf technology.

Yes, extremely good points and I'll address that. You are totally spot on about storage considerations. And I'm here to tell you my HVX200 without the P2 store would be like Cereal without the Milk. But the fact is, it is there right at the beginning with the system. It's proven to me to be extremely tough, never lost footage and is clipped right to my Tortlerig for 12-14 hour usage. I won't see a laptop until I'm back in the truck. All the same, Panasonic did put the package together and thought this out pretty well. Is it perfect? By all means no. But humping out of the clay banks on the Rogue River, while I'm dumping to a set of 2.5" seagate drives has always been a real snap. Never a problem transfer, and never a lost drive.

As for the proprietary attributes of P2. No doubt its Panansonic. But I do not perceive the nature of P2 the same way as XDCAM media. The P2 to me is a reusable intermediate, its not the final destination.

As for transferring manually, there still work to be done on the EX. I'm still going to have to move footage from SxS to XDCAM anyways. It maybe all there on the shoulder mount cameras when pop the disc out, but the EX is still going to have an extra step involved.

One day Panasonic may indeed switch out to something other than P2 cards, possibly go with something more "off the shelf". When it happens my P2 system will eventually go out the door for sale along with the HVX and the P2 Store or simply checked in as b-roll gear.

But the footage shot is liquid and can go anywhere I want it for long term storage with minimal drama. I'm not hooked in to one vendor for storage and content management needs. I've already tested this with nearly a dozen different storage/retrieval formats with confirmed great results every single time.

Granted, several companies may be producing XDCAM discs. (Of course I've got five Maxell 1-inch reels here.) But that still doesn't change the fact that Sony's XDCAM is the final destination for the material. It is my philosophy on storage and content management that keeps me away from the dependencies of this system, perceived or real.

I hope this does some good for someone out there, having the same questions or thoughts on the issue. I know I've wrapped my head on this more than once. If you are hooked in with a client who lives, eats and breathes XDCAM, and your camped out in their parking lot, then guess what??? You know what to go buy, don't you?

For now, it's time for this Beaver to head back to the dam and start editing or I won't have the the cash for my FCS upgrade!

:bath: