New setup... MacBook Pro or MacPro?

S

senomar

Well-known member
I've tried searching, but haven't come up with exactly what I was looking for.
I have edited DV footage for 7 years on a Mac with FCP.
I'm about to dive into HD (HVX) soon and need some advice with the setup.
Since the Chicago bootcamp was cancelled, posting here is the next best thing for now..

I have never used a disk array (shame on me), and despite being a bit slow, firewire drives have almost always handled everything sufficiantly for me.

But now, with moving to HD, it seems I should start looking into this more seriously. But i'm confused because so many of you guys are using FW800 or even 400 for HD still. Is this really an okay thing to do?

Ideally, I'd love to do everything on a MacBook Pro. But it seems like they will always be inferior in speed and SATA compatibility to set up a disk array.

So the questions are these:

Is it a good idea to be editing HD footage on a MacBook Pro if that's all you've got?
If so, can you work of the internal drive safely and speedily?
and if not (or if it's a bad idea to use the int drive) what is the best external solution for the MacBook Pro?

And compared to a MacPro, how much loss in speed of workflow will be experienced if using a disc array with that system?

Thanks for any help!
Cody
 
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You can't really use a MacBook at all with FCP; FCP comes up and says "won't run, no AGP card". So you're looking at getting a MacBook PRO, not a MacBook.
 
I think it's mostly a matter of expandability. You can import, log, and edit DVCPRO HD footage fine on a G4 powerbook, although mine has some difficulty displaying video without some distortion on the internal screen, I think it's a limitation of the video card. Your options now are whether you can handle editing entirely on Computer monitors, or if you need to do serious color correction. If it's the former, then you can use a Macbook Pro with an external 23" display, and you should be able to handle most editing situations, especially in 720p modes. As far as drive speed in concerned, you can either go with Firewire 800 raid, or try out the Expresscard eSATA adaptors coming available. An eSATA raid should be plenty fast to handle any DVCPRO HD, even 1080.
Now, if you want to do basic color correction, your options are far more limited. You'll want a mac pro, with an HDSDI output card. You'll then want a calibratable HD display.
Of course, if you have the cash, you could forgo the tower system and the HD SDI output card in favor of a DVCPRO HD deck, which if I'm not totally off base should allow you to edit much like you're used to doing with DV video, you can run firewire out of the MacPro or Macbook Pro to the Deck, then HDSDI out of the deck to the monitor.

I know this is a very complex answer, so for a short answer, yes, you can edit HVX footage on a Macbook Pro.
 
I'm not talking about "acceptable performance", I'm talking about if you install FCP 5.1 on a standard MacBook and then try to run it, it'll bring up a dialog box that says "nope, no can do -- you don't have an AGP graphics card."

It simply will not run at all.

I don't know if you can hack your way around that somehow, but that's what it did on the MB I tried it on.
 
Barry_Green said:
You can't really use a MacBook at all with FCP; FCP comes up and says "won't run, no AGP card". So you're looking at getting a MacBook PRO, not a MacBook.
Click to expand...

I don't believe that this is correct.

http://www.creativemac.com/articles/viewarticle.jsp?id=43717

This article discusses using FCP 5.1 with the MacBook.

However, there are other reasons for not using the MB versus using the MBP -- lack of the ability to create either a second FW bus or a second eSATA bus.
 
Basing it off of trying to use it on someone's MacBook, and that's the message I got. But in google'ing, it looks like it may have been a version prior to 5.1. Maybe 5.1 removes the AGP restriction, but apparently 4.5 requires an AGP card.

So -- I may be speaking of that which I do not know! :)

EDIT: Or, perhaps not. The specifications for FC Studio say:
AGP Quartz Extreme or PCI Express graphics card (Final Cut Studio is not supported on systems using the Intel Extreme Graphics 950 GMA)

Regular MacBooks use the Intel 950 GMA.

Maybe there's a way to hack around it, I don't know, but what Apple's saying on their site seems consistent with what I experienced in the field.
 
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I've run the whole FCP Suite on a Duo Core Mac Mini - with the same graphics chip as the Macbook. Everything runs. Realtime effects in Final Cut are limited and Motion runs a bit choppy in real-time previews, but the apps are very usable. I'm not sure why it would be different on a Macbook.
 
damn... sorry everyone. the original post should've said MacBook Pro!
stupid names they have now...

doccutter, thanks for the response. that answers quite a few issues...

Mr. Green, if you've got anything to add now that you know it was supposed to be a MacBook Pro, please feel free to do so.

thanks guys!
cody


P.S. mods- is there any way to change the thread name? thanks
 
In 7 years of editing, my color correcting has consisted mostly of eyeballing stuff. Never had a problem, but also have never produced anything for broadcast... so I don't think it would be an issue. But this is a whole new world for me, so who knows...

has anyone tried the esata adaptors yet? if so, which one, and how do you like it? this is awfully appealing...

is this the only one available? it looks pretty sweet!
http://firmtek.stores.yahoo.net/sata2ensm2e.html
 
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thanks david! i think the one i linked to on my last post (the firmtek) is exactly that.

so let's say I'm using the sata adaptor...
When "ingesting" foogate into the computer, would you guys hook up another external drive, and copy it to both places at that same time? I mean, the sata drives are for performance only while editing, right? You still need to be backing up somewhere else in case those drives fail, yes? no?
thanks again!
 
I think what might be best for redundancy on the eSATA side is to connect two drives, and make them into a RAID1. You won't get an improvement in speed, but you will have a backup for your data, in case one mechanism fails. I have backed everything up to DVD's, and I consider those to be my masters in case of hard drive disaster. If I'm not mistaken, the eSATA adaptor should have 2 ports on it. You can get a quad-interface enclosure from otherworld computing, and connect one to each eSATA port. Since I use 8G cards, the dual-layer DVD's work for backup, so maybe pick up an external dual-layer burner. HTH.
 
thanks for the suggestions. I think the 17" MBP comes with a dual layer DVD burner, which would be very convienent.

I'm a little confused as to why you'd opt to use the SATA ports not at RAID 0
When working on the project, the extra speed would be huge when working in HD, right?

I guess if all I did was load the media in, it would be appropriate... and maybe that's what you're trying to tell me.

But in the actual editing process, I should be using the SATA at RAID 0, right?


If what I just said is true, that still leaves things a little unclear if I have a project I'm in the middle of, and I go out to shoot more footage.

What would be my workflow from that point? sorry for all the newbie questions... i'm sure it's frustrating. I really appreciate the guidance though.
-cody
 
Well,
I was suggesting doing RAID 1 so that you would have some redundancy in case of drive failure. I do think that eSATA drives, assuming they are faster than IDE drives in FW800 enclosures, should be plenty fast for basic editing work. The FW 800 drives I have are fast enough to stream 720p, and I can even play back video with color correction effects in real time, but the real bottleneck for me is processor speed, so I can't guarantee that a single drive would be able to handle multiple 1080 streams for editing on a Macbook Pro. So the trade off is either RAID 0 if you want plenty of speed, or RAID 1 if you want security. If you back up the P2's to DVD's, then in the event of a hard drive catastrophe, you could restore your media from the DVD's onto a new drive. It's up to you, but these are some options.


I would also suggest that if you have the time, you should wait a month or so, since the new Intel chips are coming out, which should provide you with a faster, and less power-hungry laptop. There are a few sparse rumors that suggest new Macbook Pros within a couple of months, nothing to bank on though.
 
Thanks again for the help. I do understand the tradeoff speed vs. security.

But is sounds like you're saying that going with RAID 0 won't help all that much... Am I reading that correctly? What I don't want is the slowdown that happens with DV and my firewire drives when editing a lengthy project (1 hr) with more than 2 streams in certain places (titles, etc)

Which MacBook Pro are you using?

I will be waiting at least a month. Probably 2... so that may work out wonderfully...
thanks!
 
The only reason to use RAID 0 is to have an immediate backup of your data, you get the same throughput as a single drive. I don't have a Macbook Pro, I'm using a powerbook g4, which is fast enough to run a couple of streams, but I'm not entirely certain it can handle long-form work. I hope to pick up the next generation of Macbook Pro.
 
sorry to keep beating this horse...
but I assume you meant RAID 1 in your last post, right?
with RAID 0, the only reason is for the speed, as far as I understand...
 
Right you are... Sorry. RAID 0 Two drives striped to allow for almost double speed, no redundancy, hence the 0. RAID 1, two drives mirrored exactly, no speed advantage.
 
Right. Thanks for the help. I'm still not sure I feel comfortable having the laptop only. But the esata looks very, very appealing... I guess I'll wait to see how other's are going about this... Thanks again (one more time)
 
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