Jaime Valles
Veteran
I really hope they have a higher bitrate for 4K than the 100Mbps the GH4 has. 150Mbps 4K would be fantastic.
NEW more detailed info on the DVX200 (4/24/2015)
- Thread starter atroa
- Start date
Be careful with that chart as it's really thinking about still format sizes and gives the 4:3 format dimensions for 4/3. Use 4/3 for video and you're getting a 16:9 crop of it, so the overall area is much less than that image may lead you to think.
The second chart vanvideo posted is far more useful (from a video perspective) as it gives the relative sizes for video sensors. (It's actually one of the best I've seen for illustrating the point - thanks.)
I find it useful to think in terms of doubling of area, which practically relates to an f stop for such as dof calculations.
And in that case, for practical purposes, you can think of a doubling as you go from 1/3"=>1/2"=>2/3"=>1"=>4/3=>s35. So f2 on a 1/3" sensor will give the same dof as a s35 sensor stopped down by 5 stops - f11.
No - most sensors designed for video use nowadays are 16:9 aspect ratio native. If they are primarily designed for stills, they'll likely be 4:3 or 3:2 - the 16:9 video mode being a letterbox crop of that.
So the used area for video is 75% of the area of the total chip in the case of a 4/3 chip.
The first diagram you posted gives the full 4/3 area (at 4:3 ratio) - so it's geared towards still photography. When used for video, the useful area will only be 75% of that. That's why (in a video sense) the second diagram you posted is much better - it's relating actual used chip areas, all at 16:9 aspect ratios.
sodotoguwangus
Well-known member
Sure you can accomplish the same results with the right lens on other cameras--I just think it's interesting that this is a fixed lens with shallow depth of field capability similar to DSLR (from what I have heard). Personally I would rather have an interchangeable lens system but I think this camera would be an interesting option for this who want to try filmmaking but aren't hard-core enough or have enough money for a full interchangeable lens system -- and still achieve shallow DOP with the fixed lens this camera offers
Thomas Smet
Veteran
As a comparison to what the lens on the DVX200 could cost we can try to compare it to the Sony FE PZ 28-135mm f/4 G OSS Lens. Decent range constant f4 speed and power zoom for the bargain price of $2,500.00.
1. Starts at f4 instead of f2.8. Thats a 1 stop advantage for the DVX200 lens on the wide end That more or less eliminates the one stop advantage to a super35mm camera the Sony lens would be used on. Yes the long end is slower but only by 1/3 a stop. You would likely have to get pretty far in the zoom range to get past f4 on the DVX200 lens. Like maybe around 135mm which is the long end focal length of the Sony lens. So technically within the same range of that Sony lens the DVX200 is going to be a stop faster to equal through out the same zoom range. This makes the DVX200 lens of significantly higher value than the Sony lens.
2. Sony lens is only a 5x zoom roughly. 5x vs 13x is a massive difference in zoom range. This makes the DVX200 lens of significantly higher value than the Sony lens.
3. Size is another factor. That Sony lens is massive and weighs 2.6lbs. Having an easy to handle camera and lens combo without breaking your back and being able to run & gun for a 8+ hours day makes the DVX200 lens significantly higher in value than the Sony lens.
4. Power zoom for the Sony lens is on the side of the lens. Lame. Sure usable but not an idea situation for any person who actually loves to use a power zoom lens. DVX200 power zoom is part of the camera itself and much better ergonomics to work with.
This is why I say the lens on the DVX200 would likely be worth at least $2,000.00.
Another option is the Canon CN7x17 KAS S Cine-Servo 17-120mm T2.95 (EF Mount) which costs $31,000.00 and only offers a 7x zoom range but is constant f2.8.
1. Starts at f4 instead of f2.8. Thats a 1 stop advantage for the DVX200 lens on the wide end That more or less eliminates the one stop advantage to a super35mm camera the Sony lens would be used on. Yes the long end is slower but only by 1/3 a stop. You would likely have to get pretty far in the zoom range to get past f4 on the DVX200 lens. Like maybe around 135mm which is the long end focal length of the Sony lens. So technically within the same range of that Sony lens the DVX200 is going to be a stop faster to equal through out the same zoom range. This makes the DVX200 lens of significantly higher value than the Sony lens.
2. Sony lens is only a 5x zoom roughly. 5x vs 13x is a massive difference in zoom range. This makes the DVX200 lens of significantly higher value than the Sony lens.
3. Size is another factor. That Sony lens is massive and weighs 2.6lbs. Having an easy to handle camera and lens combo without breaking your back and being able to run & gun for a 8+ hours day makes the DVX200 lens significantly higher in value than the Sony lens.
4. Power zoom for the Sony lens is on the side of the lens. Lame. Sure usable but not an idea situation for any person who actually loves to use a power zoom lens. DVX200 power zoom is part of the camera itself and much better ergonomics to work with.
This is why I say the lens on the DVX200 would likely be worth at least $2,000.00.
Another option is the Canon CN7x17 KAS S Cine-Servo 17-120mm T2.95 (EF Mount) which costs $31,000.00 and only offers a 7x zoom range but is constant f2.8.
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Thomas Smet
Veteran
key word, yet. And thats why the DVX200 is unique. Plus you can't exactly assume a 4k version of the EA50 would be around the same price as the HD version. I would expect it to be more expensive than the DVX200 and the DVX200 would still have the lens speed advantage on the wide end.
philiplipetz
Veteran
A high bit rate 4k X70 would not have the same controls and buttons configured for fast ENG use as the DVX200 has. This camera is about ease of use in specific fast changing situations. And it would not have the same shallow DOF.
alaskacameradude
Veteran
No, that 18-200 lens starts at F3.5. BUT it's on a considerably larger super 35 chip so
if you wanna look at it that way, it is definitely equivalent as far as depth of field and
so on. See with a bigger chip, you don't need as fast a lens. That's why (as a general rule)
fast full frame lenses are more expensive than fast APSC lenses which are more expensive than fast
MFT lenses. F2.8 on a smaller chip isn't the same 'look' as F2.8 on a larger one.
I was a news videographer/editor for 10 years. I'm well aware of the benefits
of a large zoom range. I AM one of those traditional video shooters you speak of.
I'm just saying this camera has the exact same compromises
that all big sensor cameras with a large zoom lens face....either a ramping iris
or a big, expensive lens.
The FS700 does have several powered zoom lenses available. 2 of them are smaller
ranged zoom lenses (18-105 or 28-135) with non ramping iris. The other is the 18-200
I mentioned. So sorry, but slapping that 18-200 powered zoom on actually would give
you much the same experience (not the exact same but pretty similar). Every camera is
unique, nothing will have the exact same feature set as this cam. But it's nothing
especially revolutionary here.
For comparison, the $5,500 Sony Z100 is at ~ 240 Mbps for 24p and 600 Mbps at 60p (both in 4K)
One can probably get by with a couple of zooms for MFT - standard and telephoto.
That said, one has to presume that specs match the actual quality. It's not always the case.
alaskacameradude
Veteran
Or we could compare it to the Sony 18-200 power zoom? That seems like a decent comparison
doesn't it? And certain cameras (Sony vg20, fs700, ea50 and fs7) all have zoom rockers on the
camera that will work with the Sony powered zoom lenses, so no need to use the zoom lever on
the side of the lens. But I agree that 5 grand for the DVX200 seems to be a pretty reasonable price
for a camera and lens like that. And sure, it will probably be something that 'crossover' shooters
will buy. As a matter of fact, I (as a former video guy who never used DSLRs) may have very well
bought it if it would have been available when I was getting into large sensor cams.
The current price for the EA50M is $2600 or so. The upgrade 4K price for the X70 is rumored to be $500. About the difference between the CX900 and the AX100. So let us assume the Sony can give 4K for $500. That puts an interchangeable lens EA50 4K at just over $3000 about the price of the HCX1000 but with an APSC sensor bigger than the MFT of the DVX200 and all the same switches etc. I expect the FMU128 is fast enough for 150Mbps !!! Now the issue is this would make the PXW-Z100 and the FDR-AX1 not worth very much !!! They may be in this position anyway with the new arrivals and they have yet to be finished !!! We don't have the DVX200 yet either.
Mike Harvey
Veteran
One thing to keep in mind when comparing the DVX200 to these Sony's is none of them (except the $5,500 Z100) have HD-SDI. Think of it this way, there isn't much difference between the AC130 and AC160 other than variable frame rate and HD-SDI, but at release there was about $800+ difference in price. There still is a few years later. HD-SDI is always going to jack the price up. None of the Sony's mentioned have a variable framerate (at least, not that I'm aware of), either. Both of these things in and of itself adds to the cost, plus Panasonic is naturally going to charge an additional premium for that.
In a few months we can expect to get the BM Video Assist for $500 that will provide a nice 5" monitor, a 4:2:2 recorder and HDMI/SDI in and out converter. So any of these cameras will be able to get an SDi output. Something else I will look at when they come out. I think the DVX200 will be an interesting camera and I will look at it when it comes out. But there may be other competitors by the fall.
Yes, but compare the 4/3 sensor from the DVX200 to the 1/2.3" and 1" sensors from the other fixed lens 4K cameras, and they would also be cropped, correct?
I guess this depends on the meaning of "cropped". The depth of field is given relative to a full frame sensor for the reference purposes, which makes any sub-FF sensor "cropped" by definition ... but, if it's a 16:9 camcorder sensor like in the BMD Pocket cam, the entire surface of the sensor is used all the time. On a hybrid camera such as, say GH4, the 4K (4096x2160) image uses the center 8.8 MPX out of the available 16.1 MPX, which gives a "crop" above and beyond a traditional MFT 2:1 (comes out to ~ 2.3:1).
(On a positive side, unlike in a 4608x3456/ 16.1 MPX photo mode, you are also using the center of your lens)
alpi69
Veteran
For anyone who also does shoot documentary or events this is THE cam right now. I have the C300, have a Canon DSLR, just tested the X70 from Sony and have used the FS700 and FS7 in recent shoots. All have their compromises, be it price/value, size/stability, codec, ergonomics....tools for different jobs...every one of them.
My shoots are multicam interviews, scripted commercials, docs, sportsevents, liveevents....very much all over the industry in terms of demands.
For 90% of those shoots I would like to have had a cam like the DVX200 promises to be. There is NO ADVANTAGE at all in the simple fact that a lens is interchangeable. If I have a fixed lens in my needed range, why would I wish to have an interchangeable lense? Sure my primes on the C300 will blow away this DVX200, but as soon as I need to use the 24-105/4, because I have no time to swap lenses, then the DVX200 will be better. It has the DOF the clients want, it is not too small when used handheld (the X70 is terrible, because it is so small, hardly to hold steady), it has the layout many good camcorders have (the FS700 has probably the worst ergonomic layout of the EVF/LCD).....
Many people have or will have a Shogun or the new BMD monitor-recorder by the time this cam comes out. So if you need a better codec, just slap it on. After all the codec is still superior to the internal 5D codecs which many use.
I am very excited about this camera. Having used the DVX100 and the HVX200 I know how much mojo Panasonic can build into their cams. To have a DSLR in a camcorder-body (like the FS7 and C300) is awesome, but to add a relatively fast fixed lens without breaking bank and back is just heaven again after 5 years of lensswapping.
My shoots are multicam interviews, scripted commercials, docs, sportsevents, liveevents....very much all over the industry in terms of demands.
For 90% of those shoots I would like to have had a cam like the DVX200 promises to be. There is NO ADVANTAGE at all in the simple fact that a lens is interchangeable. If I have a fixed lens in my needed range, why would I wish to have an interchangeable lense? Sure my primes on the C300 will blow away this DVX200, but as soon as I need to use the 24-105/4, because I have no time to swap lenses, then the DVX200 will be better. It has the DOF the clients want, it is not too small when used handheld (the X70 is terrible, because it is so small, hardly to hold steady), it has the layout many good camcorders have (the FS700 has probably the worst ergonomic layout of the EVF/LCD).....
Many people have or will have a Shogun or the new BMD monitor-recorder by the time this cam comes out. So if you need a better codec, just slap it on. After all the codec is still superior to the internal 5D codecs which many use.
I am very excited about this camera. Having used the DVX100 and the HVX200 I know how much mojo Panasonic can build into their cams. To have a DSLR in a camcorder-body (like the FS7 and C300) is awesome, but to add a relatively fast fixed lens without breaking bank and back is just heaven again after 5 years of lensswapping.
That's it! I agree with you 100%! That's the reason why I find this camera so interesting, it will make lens swapping 80% of the time unnecessary. But an AF200 for the other 20% would be great too; at least we have the GH4 for that!