New Blackmagic Camera July 16th?

[John Brawley]

From the video it seems that it is possible to shoot in 4K RAW on the URSA Mini 12K without a sensor crop. But assuming this involves some downscaling of a higher resolution sensor readout, is this really RAW any longer? Anyway, it's possible that this downscaled RAW (however that is constructed) is part of what led to the RAW compression ratio issues when shooting 4K. It would be interesting to know if the 6K or 4K sensor crop modes share the same problems.

Well, to be fair here, it’s a 400% enlargement being show, which is from the 4K output of a 12K camera....a 400% blow up of the lowest resolution mode of the sensor and then in nearly the highest compression rate.

With the way they address the photosites / pixel arrangement and re-arranging, it’s natural that 4K will be not be the same as 12K downscaled to 4K.

It’s very fair to scrutinise the possibilities of this camera can do.

I’ve just wrapped a film shoot in in Ontario and have to say, we were all consistently blown away by the results. Shooting in very difficult conditions and visually hard for any codec. Constantly moving shots in a forest. A lot of extremely fine detail.

Technicolor looked after our post and we did project a few tests in a cinema.

The look is what strikes me, the results you can work with in terms of the colour fidelity.

It was a remote shoot, four hours from Toronto and civilisation. Getting dailies transcoded and back to editorial that was based in LA along was tricky at first because not a lot of what is used to generate these files could “read” the 12k BRAW files. We had four bodies with us, three in use and a back up body. We also had two Alexa Minis as a back up. We didn’t even use them once.

I shot 12K Q1 most of the time which generates about 1TB per hour shot. About the same as Arri RAW by the way.

I often switched to 8K for more frenetic shots for the reduced rolling shutter time. We also had some very long (600mm+) shots and RS can show up there as well, but I’d guess about 75% of the film will have been shot 12K and with the same data footprint as Arri RAW.

If you want to shoot 4K at very low data rates then I’m not sure this is the camera you’d want to shoot with.

Everyone from the VERY experienced and visually astute and discerning director and all though post to the producers were all very impressed with the images. My camera crew, having never worked with a BMD camera (or me!) went from highly sceptical to mostly enthusiastic by the end of the show.

https://variety.com/2020/film/news/naomi-watts-toronto-1234767807/

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/b...raphers-are-working-with-new-safety-protocols

JB

 

[Tom Roper]

It was a remote shoot, four hours from Toronto and civilisation.
JB

4 hours away from Toronto and any civilization would be Chicago. :smile:

 

[DLD]

4 hours away from Toronto and any civilization would be Chicago. :smile:

Like he said, "away from civilization".

 

[John Brawley]

4 hours away from Toronto and any civilization would be Chicago. :smile:

North Bay.

No active Covid for 50 days before we shot.

No good coffee. Luckily I travel with an espresso machine these days it wasn’t really so un-civilised.

JB

 

[Guest]

North Bay.

No active Covid for 50 days before we shot.

No good coffee. Luckily I travel with an espresso machine these days it wasn’t really so un-civilised.

JB

Traveling with an espresso machine. 4 BM12K bodies, and 2 Alexa Mini's as unused backups. A crew with departments. Starting to sound like civilization. haha.

 

[Joshua Cadmium]

We also had two Alexa Minis as a back up. We didn’t even use them once.

Well that is certainly telling as to the performance of the camera.

Have you done any direct comparisons between the two in terms of color fidelity and dynamic range? And what is your general feeling between the two? Would you shoot the 12K again for a feature, or would you go the Arri route? I know you said you were blown away, but I wasn't sure if that meant 12K going forward no matter what.

Did you have any issues with IR or moire? If Rawlite came out with a OLPF would you get it - do you think it needs one?

I'm glad to hear that a bubble approach worked for your crew. Also helps to have an espresso machine if you're trying to avoid dealing with the public, right?

 

[John Brawley]

Well that is certainly telling as to the performance of the camera.

Have you done any direct comparisons between the two in terms of color fidelity and dynamic range? And what is your general feeling between the two? Would you shoot the 12K again for a feature, or would you go the Arri route? I know you said you were blown away, but I wasn't sure if that meant 12K going forward no matter what.

Sure did. I shot a side by side with Alexa mini (Arri Raw) and we projected them in a cinema. (Zeiss Supremes)

Everyone preferred the look of the 12K. For it’s visual acumen and look. I blind tested but the sharpness is obvious. Not that the Alexa is bad at all, but when you A/B compare them you know which one is the 12K.

Director especially preferred the look, but we had the producers and the director and a few others and the consensus was that the 12K felt better. Maybe one day I can share those tests.

They’re both good cameras obviously, there wasn’t massive differences. You can see ones a sharper image. And when you do a blow up the Alexa does fall apart quite quickly.

I would never be prescriptive about a choice without it tying back to story telling. I approach every new show with open eyes and assuming nothing.

But I was very confident the 12K would be a great A camera, and the look was the most desired. It has some shortcomings that have nothing to do with IQ no everything to do with the functionality on set (no look around in the EVF...limited accessory power, difficult to remote start with a Preston or WCU, no way to really customise the overlays on the output...

None of it affects the IQ of the work. It’s just more painful for the crew.

Because it was a low budget film, it meant we could have 4 bodies instead of two with the Alexa. That saved us a lot of time. We had a deal where we weren’t paying for the Alexa unless we used them. Also we knew we’d probably need a lot of post stabilisation, and the extra resolution would help.

Did you have any issues with IR or moire? If Rawlite came out with a OLPF would you get it - do you think it needs one?

I’ve never liked internal filters on any camera. Alexa etc..i never use them.

I always use front ND filters, and I test them all in pre to make sure they’re neutral. I find internal NDs (again in other brands) are often quite variable. Arri seem to also “program” different corrections when you switch them in and out for example.

So I tend to leave the internal CLEAR and use high quality ND’s in front of the lens. Also more control. Single stop adjustments.

On the G2 I have used the RAWLITE OLPF because I’ve liked what it does under TUNGSTEN lighting for me. Not so much for the OLPF part....

Moire...

It’s weird. I mean iv’e shot a LOT with the camera in various forms. I’ve shot resolution charts (which I’ve posted) and there’s no colour moire. And yet as soon as a few users get a cameras they’re triggering moire.

I don’t get it. Maybe it’s the way I shoot or the post process, but it’s not been a show stopper so far, and in theory, it’s less of an issue than on the G2 because the resolution is higher so the threshold / trigger point is much finer....therefore less likely.

So for me, hasn’t been a problem. But I’ve seen it appear in others work where I’ve not had issue isn’t he same situation...sooooo...dunno.

I'm glad to hear that a bubble approach worked for your crew. Also helps to have an espresso machine if you're trying to avoid dealing with the public, right?

The crew was tiny. We had two cameras, so just two ops, firsts and seconds and a utility, plus 2 Electrics and 4 grips and a data wrangler. Considering the caliber of the cast and people involved it was a very ‘Indy” film...quite low budget. Less than half the per episode cost of the last show I did.

The shoot itself was especially tricky because the set was always moving.

Re coffee....

I got the DE1PRO. It’s like the “RED” of espresso machines. It comes in it’s own road case. It’s quite small and portable. It doens’t use a traditional boiler approach either. Much more precise temp and flow control. It does things no other espresso machine can do and essentially you can profile other well known espresso machines to mimic what they do. It has pre-infusion and pressure and temperature profiling, but it’s all highly customisable and runs off a tablet. It has a blue tooth connected scale that charts the flow over time and can stop at weight. ...It’s common for different beans to use different ratios...ie the light African beans that i have in right now are 17G in the portafilla and 34g out for a 2:1 ratio of coffee in and liquid out....

https://decentespresso.com/overview

Errr.. yeah I grew up in Melbourne, the self appointed coffe snob capital of the world. Starbucks once opened a store in Lygon St (where the melb cafe culture started) and they went out of business a year later. Because most Australians know that Starbucks is garbage and have excellent local and non-chain coffee everywhere.

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/07/20/starbucks-australia-coffee-failure.html

 

[ahalpert]

Thanks for the thorough assessment, JB! All very interesting...

What lenses did you use, if you dont mind me asking?

Do you think BM can/will address some of the ease-of-use issues you mentioned? I assume you give them feedback?

Glad the shoot went well - do you know where/when it will be shown?

 

[John Brawley]

Thanks for the thorough assessment, JB! All very interesting...

What lenses did you use, if you dont mind me asking?

Do you think BM can/will address some of the ease-of-use issues you mentioned? I assume you give them feedback?

Glad the shoot went well - do you know where/when it will be shown?

Given the producer has had 5 films in Sundance....I’m sure that’s what they’re aiming for with a streaming sale.

Mostly Zeiss Supremes but a lot of 24-290 optimo with a doubler and a 200mm Nikon prime.

I’ve been complaining about these issues since day 1. Before the first camera was released. It’s hardly news to BMD and I’m not the only one that’s been banging on about this and a zillion other things.

OLPFs. If you only knew how many discussion have been had.

Some things get addressed and some don’t. Sometimes because it’s a choice not to. Often it’s just priorities. I’m not a camera manufacturer just an end user. What would I know about making a successful camera and staying in business. (Cause those are different outcomes)

JB

 

[Grug]

Moire...

It’s weird. I mean iv’e shot a LOT with the camera in various forms. I’ve shot resolution charts (which I’ve posted) and there’s no colour moire. And yet as soon as a few users get a cameras they’re triggering moire.

I don’t get it. Maybe it’s the way I shoot or the post process, but it’s not been a show stopper so far, and in theory, it’s less of an issue than on the G2 because the resolution is higher so the threshold / trigger point is much finer....therefore less likely.

So for me, hasn’t been a problem. But I’ve seen it appear in others work where I’ve not had issue isn’t he same situation...sooooo...dunno.

This I find really interesting. I've heard (both over the years, and now with 12k) multiple people express that moire simply hasn't been an issue for them with the Blackmagics. And yet, it's managed to kick my arse on the original BMC, on the original Pocket Cinema Camera, and on the Ursa and Pocket 4k. To the point that I'm simply not willing to shoot on them unless they've had the third party OLPFs installed (and even then, I'll still demand detailed wardrobe tests - for me it's always been clothes that have caused the biggest problems).

I really do wonder what it could be that separates people's shooting styles enough to prevent it becoming an issue for some people and not for others.

 

[ahalpert]

Different filtration choices? It is odd...how many variables could there be that would cause such different outcomes? Sensor manufacture differences?

 

[John Brawley]

This I find really interesting. I've heard (both over the years, and now with 12k) multiple people express that moire simply hasn't been an issue for them with the Blackmagics. And yet, it's managed to kick my arse on the original BMC, on the original Pocket Cinema Camera, and on the Ursa and Pocket 4k. To the point that I'm simply not willing to shoot on them unless they've had the third party OLPFs installed (and even then, I'll still demand detailed wardrobe tests - for me it's always been clothes that have caused the biggest problems).

I really do wonder what it could be that separates people's shooting styles enough to prevent it becoming an issue for some people and not for others.

It’s not like OLPFs are a magic bullet.

That F55 was a shocker don’t forget. Even with an OLPF.

JB

 

[Grug]

It’s not like OLPFs are a magic bullet.

That F55 was a shocker don’t forget. Even with an OLPF.

JB

I dunno, I've never had any significant moire issues when using any camera (that has an OLPF) at its native pixel pitch.

The F55 certainly gave us some grief early on - when shooting full-sensor 2k Raw (which I think is pixel binned?), and when shooting full-sensor 2k HFR stuff. But once we figured that out, and only shot HFR material in a 2k crop (rather than full-sensor), I don't recall having run into any issues afterwards.

I've applied that same approach to other cameras since, and it seems to have worked out well.

I'm a little surprised by the 12k though. I remember when stills cameras got to 8k (36mpx) with the Nikon D800e, that was sold as the point at which you had enough resolution to go without an OLPF, and you'd be able to resolve fine detail without much grief from moire - and for the most part, that seemed to be true. So I'd have thought at 12k the problem would be well and truly licked.

But perhaps (like most things) that was just marketing jibberish?

 

[Guest]

I dunno, I've never had any significant moire issues when using any camera (that has an OLPF) at its native pixel pitch.

The F55 certainly gave us some grief early on - when shooting full-sensor 2k Raw (which I think is pixel binned?), and when shooting full-sensor 2k HFR stuff. But once we figured that out, and only shot HFR material in a 2k crop (rather than full-sensor), I don't recall having run into any issues afterwards.

I've applied that same approach to other cameras since, and it seems to have worked out well.

I'm a little surprised by the 12k though. I remember when stills cameras got to 8k (36mpx) with the Nikon D800e, that was sold as the point at which you had enough resolution to go without an OLPF, and you'd be able to resolve fine detail without much grief from moire - and for the most part, that seemed to be true. So I'd have thought at 12k the problem would be well and truly licked.

But perhaps (like most things) that was just marketing jibberish?

I thought I recall that the D800 did occasionally exhibit moire in the "E" version or something. There was one without a filter.


Also, with the BM12K, it isn't a Bayer filter array, could that be a wild card sort of thing that just goes awry?

 

[Joshua Cadmium]

Sure did.

John, thank you so much for such thorough information. I so appreciate your doggedness to the craft and the extent of you informing us here. It is absolutely lovely.

I would never be prescriptive about a choice without it tying back to story telling. I approach every new show with open eyes and assuming nothing.

Of course. The choices you make are always in order to serve the story. Oftentimes, though, those choices seem to lead back to using an Alexa, so I was wondering if this camera could compete or surpass in some ways, and it appears like it can.

I’ve never liked internal filters on any camera. Alexa etc..i never use them.

If I'm reading between the lines, it seemed like the internal filters in the Alexa were more like a stepping stone because Arri at the time couldn't make bigger filters and keep the quality control. Internal NDs that you have to swap yourself don't make much sense unless you have no other choice. It's funny to me that the most fundamental thing you can do to control the image is still variable enough to cause problems. You would think it would be easy to drop the amount of light equivalently across the board at every nanometer, but it is not - and it is still frustrating.

On the G2 I have used the RAWLITE OLPF because I’ve liked what it does under TUNGSTEN lighting for me. Not so much for the OLPF part....

Yes, there is so much more IR in tungsten that you need to make sure it is properly filtered. Also, if tungsten still reigns supreme, I keep thinking we need to have a tungsten balanced sensor. And all it would take would be a proper dichroic filter in front of the sensor that is easily removable. It would be incredibly niche, though - the market would be almost impossibly small.

So for me, hasn’t been a problem. But I’ve seen it appear in others work where I’ve not had issue isn’t he same situation...sooooo...dunno.

If you're not seeing it, that means it can be mitigated. Were you using diffusion on everything you were shooting? Have you tried shooting with similar fabrics?

The shoot itself was especially tricky because the set was always moving.

Well that sounds like it fit your skillset real well. Improvised jazz, man.

Much more precise temp and flow control.

I really feel that cinema, like almost anything, is just precise math. It's the math of the lighting ratios, the math of the balancing act of framing, the math of filtration, the math of the sensor, the math of the color correction - IT'S JUST MATH! It's the same thing with coffee - it's the math of the roasting temperature, the math of the brewing temperature, the math of the pressure - it all literally boils down to math. If you can make things precisely repeatable, you can filter out what works and what doesn't, and end up with something that is aesthetically pleasing.

Errr.. yeah I grew up in Melbourne, the self appointed coffe snob capital of the world. Starbucks once opened a store in Lygon St (where the melb cafe culture started) and they went out of business a year later. Because most Australians know that Starbucks is garbage and have excellent local and non-chain coffee everywhere.

I'm a coffee snob myself, but I have learned to live with close, but not perfect coffee - mainly because I just don't want one more thing I have to fiddle with. In Phoenix, which has a population of 1/3 of Melbourne, there are some good coffee shops, but only one place (one!) that I believe has consistently transcendental coffee. Starbucks is definitely not ideal - it's so over-roasted that's it has the flavor profile of cigarette butts. I will admit (from recollection) that their coldbrew or their nitro is okay, but still not great.

 

[Tom Roper]

Every camera with a grid pattern has an aliasing frequency.

 

[John Brawley]

I dunno, I've never had any significant moire issues when using any camera (that has an OLPF) at its native pixel pitch.

The only time I’ve had work not pass QC / tech checks was for moire and it was shot with F55 (Multiple times)

Yes they had multiple OLPFs if you recall depending on which modes you were shooting.

Point being, any camera can moire, even with an OLPF.

I'm a little surprised by the 12k though. I remember when stills cameras got to 8k (36mpx) with the Nikon D800e, that was sold as the point at which you had enough resolution to go without an OLPF, and you'd be able to resolve fine detail without much grief from moire - and for the most part, that seemed to be true. So I'd have thought at 12k the problem would be well and truly licked.

Well like I said, I’ve shot a LOT with the camera now. A film and many many tests, and I’ve not found it to be a deal breaker at all, and it’s certainly showing up a lot less than a G2...but others seems to be able to induce it easily so I don’t know...I even posted a resolution chart with zone plates. It should have been at it’s worst there....

Of course. The choices you make are always in order to serve the story. Oftentimes, though, those choices seem to lead back to using an Alexa, so I was wondering if this camera could compete or surpass in some ways, and it appears like it can.

It’s a contender for sure, as an A camera option. The main things holding it back are those high end utility things. Not anything to do with IQ.

If I'm reading between the lines, it seemed like the internal filters in the Alexa were more like a stepping stone because Arri at the time couldn't make bigger filters and keep the quality control. Internal NDs that you have to swap yourself don't make much sense unless you have no other choice. It's funny to me that the most fundamental thing you can do to control the image is still variable enough to cause problems. You would think it would be easy to drop the amount of light equivalently across the board at every nanometer, but it is not - and it is still frustrating.

The mini of course has internal switchable NDs and that’s what I’m more referring to.

This idea that IR is simple is just...wrong.

Like with audio EQ. You can’t really just totally cut below a certain frequency. You can HEAR the difference. Same with IR. You have to roll it off to some degree.

In our early days of ND they were super aggressive. Everyone accepted very GREEN ND filters because there was no IR and that was the price you paid.

If you test the ACTUAL ND’s you’re using you can find a good set (there’s often variations set to set within the same brand) and then it’s a KNOWN thing...

Yes, there is so much more IR in tungsten that you need to make sure it is properly filtered. Also, if tungsten still reigns supreme, I keep thinking we need to have a tungsten balanced sensor. And all it would take would be a proper dichroic filter in front of the sensor that is easily removable. It would be incredibly niche, though - the market would be almost impossibly small.

I love real TUNGSTEN and it does cause me some problems. But it’s not hard to test for to get it right....

There’s also a lot of sensor to sensor variation too. Most people don’t realise that every camera is kind of unique.

If you're not seeing it, that means it can be mitigated. Were you using diffusion on everything you were shooting? Have you tried shooting with similar fabrics?

I have and I haven’t.

The idea of vintage lenses and diffusion mitigating moire is a bit of a red herring. An OLPF is designed to reject detail that is too fine for the sensor to accurately reproduce. Diffusion filters are the opposite. The soften the detail that’s within what the sensor CAN resolve. Same with vintage lenses.

The only thing I can think of that really affects this in camera is the shooting stop (and thus dof)

If you can make things precisely repeatable, you can filter out what works and what doesn't, and end up with something that is aesthetically pleasing.

That’s exactly what’s great about the machine I listed. It’s very consistent. And that leaves the variables to bean...roast...batch etc....

JB

 

[Guest]

Holy m fer, the BM12k directly uploaded to YouTube looks like poop. and that is not censored.

hoping that is just compression, but I have never seen a camera look so bad even at youtube's 720p.

Looks like some cheap webcam.

 

[Tom Roper]

No link above but I think this was the "Why I Bought six UMP12k," basically 10 minutes of unboxing drivel with 30 seconds of useless video, finally getting around to answering the question of why he bought six UMP12k, which I didn't stick around for the answer. Thank heaven for the skip button, and I'm not posting the link either.

 

[John Brawley]

No link above but I think this was the "Why I Bought six UMP12k," basically 10 minutes of unboxing drivel with 30 seconds of useless video, finally getting around to answering the question of why he bought six UMP12k, which I didn't stick around for the answer. Thank heaven for the skip button, and I'm not posting the link either.

I’ve actually blocked that poster so I didn’t see the comment.

I offer this though as an example of “ungraded” straight from camera.

Shot using Zeiss CP’s (2/3) and not even edited. It’s in the order that I shot it.

There’s NO GRADE here, other than the “extended video” look applied in camera / Resolve. So “straight from camera”

12K Q1 extended video.

https://vimeo.com/459834673

JB