C100: New Atomos Ninja Blade With HDMI

Ok, initial tests completed. Here's what I found:

• No breaks in recording 24p from the C100. Just one long ProRes file. Record triggering works as it should.
• I recorded to the Ninja 2 via loop thru at the same time and got one file break after 6 minutes. The "Skippy" icon appeared for some reason - which was weird as I was using identical formatted Samsung SSDs in both.
• In 24p the 2px black line on the right DOES exist. I will also be submitting feedback to Atomos about this issue.

I'll run the Ninja 2 though again directly connected to see if i can replicate the break issue.

EDIT: Ninja 2 recorded all the way through this time. No file breaks.
 
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Came home tonight to a new Ninja Blade! Surprised how light it is and the screen is oh so very nice. I want to try it in place of my EVF for my Recoil rig. Perfect size.
 
marvinhello said:
perfect companion for a ninja blade:
http://www.gridsuportes.com/buy-grid-5-0/
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Hmmmm.... NOW we're talking...

If I could get this, or a LCDVF made to this size... that would certainly make it a no brainer for me.

I could let go of the issue of it being smaller than an 7" monitor AND I'd get the additional point of contact that I already like so much using my LCDVF on the normal LCD screen.

I didn't realize they made viewfinders this big. Do you anything about optics/magnification (if any)?
 
AndreeOnline said:
Hmmmm.... NOW we're talking...

If I could get this, or a LCDVF made to this size... that would certainly make it a no brainer for me.

I could let go of the issue of it being smaller than an 7" monitor AND I'd get the additional point of contact that I already like so much using my LCDVF on the normal LCD screen.

I didn't realize they made viewfinders this big. Do you anything about optics/magnification (if any)?
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the feedback from REDUSER forum is quite good, however a couple of people burned dots on the LCD when exposed to the sun.
 
So I'm not sure if this is the right place to ask, but having a C100, I am looking to get a bit more out of grading. I use the BMCC's and LOVE the 10-bit 4.2.2 color. With the ninja, does this bring in 10-bit 4.2.2 color out of the c100 even though the c100 outputs an 8-bit uncompressed image? Just a little confused. Any de-fogging would be awesome! or user experience when grading the Ninja pro-res vs the canon avchd.
 
Prophetmatt said:
So I'm not sure if this is the right place to ask, but having a C100, I am looking to get a bit more out of grading. I use the BMCC's and LOVE the 10-bit 4.2.2 color. With the ninja, does this bring in 10-bit 4.2.2 color out of the c100 even though the c100 outputs an 8-bit uncompressed image? Just a little confused. Any de-fogging would be awesome! or user experience when grading the Ninja pro-res vs the canon avchd.
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C100 HDMI is 8-bit 422. So you do get more color info, but are limited to the 8-bit space.

Lots of people have done extensive testing on this. General consensus is that Ninja recorded in HQ has a bit more latitude for chroma key and hard secondaries. In my experience primary corrections are not really improved, which is to say the C100 actually holds up pretty well to basic grading. If you shoot a lot of C-log you'll probably find more benefit to external recording. YMMV

The file itself from the recorder is 10-bit, but you are bottlenecked by the output of the camera.
 
Thank you guys so much for the feedback! Thanks Nate.

Eric, I can't wait to see that review :)

Prophetmatt, In my experience, I didn't feel or see a difference in grading the prores from the ninja vs grading AVCHD. the AVCHD from the C100 is suprisingly solid and hold very well. I would not hold my breath if I were you. But other users may have had a different experience. To me, everything about the ninja is about workflow, having a friendly codec for the editing, a codec that is broadcast approved... But not for a better image quality. You may get disappointed if that's what you are going for.

But again, people may have had a very different experience and view on this and I would like to hear about it too.
 
Yeah it improves the image a bit... 4:2:2 prores 8 bit rather than 4:2:0 AVCHD.

Makes a pretty big difference for foliage, high frequency detail. Shot C100 as b cam for 2k Alexa show and we needed to handle the AVCHD footage from the day the Ninja went down separately sometimes, de-noise, fix up the grain. Foliage was rough, color a little less great, macro blocking evident. For super low light 6400 ISO+ the difference is BIG, otherwise not a big deal.

For TV or whatever, who cares. But pixel peepers will notice. I ilke AVCHD.... lazy. But it does make a difference I guess if you look for it.
 
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Thanks everyone! I really do like the prores as I like grading in resolve and it would definitely save me a step.
 
So, here's a slightly off-topic question: I have heard people complain that quicktime files will force Windows-based Premiere Pro into a 32 bit environment. Will the ProRes files from the Ninja Blade to this to Windows users? Would the DNxHD option be better for Windows editors?
 
Policar said:
For TV or whatever, who cares. (...) I ilke AVCHD.... lazy.
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I admire your honesty and dedication to reduce overcomplexification. :) Just a little point of order: even if your pictures are so very pretty, you can see 4:2:0 in the vectorscope. Whilst news is happy with 4:2:0 (they'd be happy with iPhone if you got the story), most European broadcasters still demand 4:2:2 and therefore anything with a 'revenue generation life' from a library shot to your next film will probably extend further for being 4:2:2.

For the AVCHD material, did you switch off the internal de-noising?
 
I just pulled the trigger and ordered the blade from markertek. I am really hoping it will ad an extra level of comfort for focusing and viewing the shot over the original Ninja2. I have a frequent scenario where I have the HDMI passing through to a large 24" monitor that the talent views, so I am left strictly viewing the C100 screen or the Ninja2 screen and just don't feel 100% comfortable that I am getting a good idea what the image actually looks like. I just really hope it is a significant improvement. It will be here tomorrow. Will post my opinions.
 
I'm really liking the Ninja Blade as a monitor. Its a nice size to have bolted on to the C100. I would never use the Ninja 2 as a monitor because it sucked LOL! Since the NB is such a great monitor a cool way to use it and the LCD is to just leave magnification on in the on board LCD and use the NB for framing and exposure. Lots of great tools available and one tap on the screen and they all disappear. Toggle around with magnification for critical focus and leave it engaged. Doesn't hurt that the C100 also triggers the recorder too.

I ordered a NATO rail for it so I can use my Zacuto Axis with the Ninja Blade. Of course, now that the NB is going to be on the camera a whole lot more I might as well record some juicy ProRes 422.
 
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MattDavis said:
I admire your honesty and dedication to reduce overcomplexification. :) Just a little point of order: even if your pictures are so very pretty, you can see 4:2:0 in the vectorscope. Whilst news is happy with 4:2:0 (they'd be happy with iPhone if you got the story), most European broadcasters still demand 4:2:2 and therefore anything with a 'revenue generation life' from a library shot to your next film will probably extend further for being 4:2:2.

For the AVCHD material, did you switch off the internal de-noising?
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No... should I have switched it off? I like the default look with cinema lock, lazy again... How much de-noising is applied by default? This is one of the only cameras I trust at extreme ISOs maybe it's because de-noise is on.

I am not surprised you can see it in the vectorscope, but isn't the C100 ok as a b camera with ACHD if A cam is C300? Limited about of AVCHD ok?

Fair enough, though, and I do use the Ninja when I want to grade heavily and plan to get the Ninja Blade when I can afford it.
 
+1 on Erik's suggestion of LCD monitor as 'zoomed in' focus aid, Ninja Blade as production monitor with easy access to WFM etc. And of course the amazing Favourite/Reject metadata for those of us using FCPX. That really is the cherry on the icing on the cake.

We now need an enlightened kickstarter project to deliver a loupe for the Ninja Blade, plus a sun-hood and Atomos at some stage must finally acknowledege that we won't leave them alone until they do a 'punch in' 1:1 pixel focus aid that can be moved around, even though we'll use the LCD panel for that as Erik proposes (it's really cool to work that way, BTW).

If I put my geek cap on (some say that's what I wear 100% of the time anyway) I'd say that the false colour mode needs a wider range on the skin tones. Like, that's big news. Just a little wider. I'm comparing with Zacuto EVF and Small HD here, though other monitors also do an awesome job. You can jeer and throw tomatoes at False Colour, but it really can be a great aid (chromakey, interviews, etc). Especially when you recognise that many cameras today only do zebras between 70% and 100%. African skin tones start at 40%, Asian starts at 50%. Glaswegian tops out at about 75%, admittedly.

Bottom line: this little Ninja Blade thing is going to be a fairly constant companion. Really loving what it does.

I think this is what I've missed out on before:

In the past, I've used a Pix220 in interviews and chromkey - and quite frankly wondered how much it was adding to the situation over the amazing audio quality.

What the Ninja Blade has demonstrated immediately, in the few days I've owned it, is that it really helps in situations that I didn't bring the Pix into due to its heft and power requirements. In run and gun situations, the AVCHD codec does get stressed - more stressed than it can cope with. I would not have been shooting with a Pix in these scenarios (unless of course I was using my humungous frankenrig which I grew to hate with a passion).

I really think that the Nina Blade is one of those 'must haves' for C100 owners which will be incorporated and trumped by a C105 or something later on, but actually the original mix will be better. Sorry Canon, your white balance controls suck hugely. LOL
 
BBC says 10% of AVCHD (or other non 4:2:2 50 Mbit) is acceptable, more upon 'prior arrangement' and quite frankly I thin this is mostly a 'gatekeeper' exercise to cut out overly optimistic Producers from using cheaper cameras (and crews for that matter). I have been accused of throwing random bits of clothing (socks, mostly) at my TV when even the BBC deign to broadcast bits of prime time TV with poorly handled 5D Mk3 footage.

That's the problem/curse of broadcast work. It goes through so many stages of hell that you really have to start off with the most info you can get.

If you're trying to make your C-log rushes look great, quite frankly the AVCHD stuff should be fine - especially for standard GV/Portrait/B-Roll stuff. Only when the images get twiddly does AVCHD fall apart and the Ninja stuff looks great. However, I've not realised just how often this crops up day-to-day. The Pix wasn't there when I needed it the most, it seems.

As far as noise reduction on AVCHD goes, it's there. It needs to be there, in Canon's gently tweaked mode, to ensure that it doesn't swamp the codec. Don't switch it off for AVCHD, think about how it may work with it if you wish - I leave it well alone. For Ninja stuff, it's all 'au naturelle' and left to the amazing Neat Video to clean up. Neat Video does such a great job, I need to ADD film grain to prevent Vimeo and YouTube re-encoders from getting lazy.

So, denoise 4:2:2 external recordings, be happy with AVCHD for fast turnaround stuff, everything from C-Log requires (*should* require if you're doing it right) a bit of grading albeit a few tweaks in FCPX, and if you need to shift a C100 scene from one 'external GV' timezone to another, you'll understand just how better the ProRes recordings take this than the original AVCHD, but also understand that all the NLEs I've used convert any 4:2:0 8 bit recording into a far higher format as soon as you modify it.
 
@Erik and others who have the Ninja Blade with Canon C100: "What version of firmware are you running?"

There was a recent update to version 1.0.3.1.00. I've not bothered with this yet as there are no fixes to any particular issues I have, and the Continuous Record feature doesn't work with my edit software.

I have heard a report on the Atomos forums of users who upgrade to 1.0.3.1.00 and then can't trigger their Ninjas.

I really don't want to find out 'the hard way' as HDMI triggering was one of the key reasons for my investment and I'm sure others are just the same.

So, just wondering - has anyone with a Ninja Blade updated to 1.0.3.1.00, and if so, does the HDMI trigger still work?
 
Ninja Blade came with firmware 5.1 and my C100 firmware is 1.0.2.1.00 record trigger works as it should.
like you Matt new feature didn't matter to me so i skipped it.
 
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Just bought a Ninja Blade today.

Anyone using anything less "glamourous" than Sandisk SSDs? I don't normally fork out for Sandisk media - Transcend haven't let us down on CF or SDHDC for the past 3 years.

Any ingenious mounting solutions with the C100?

Have ordered one of these too:

http://www.proav.co.uk/SWIT-S-7500F...ter-Cable-For-The-S-3602F-Charger/p31417.aspx

The plan is to power the NB with a tap from the SWIT 8845 batteries I have - will let you know how they behave. Normally can't run even one down on a long shooting day. Not quite as resilient as a V Lock battery system - but a lot more agile, I hope.

Ben.
 
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