Native 24P/25p settings/problems discussion

John Caballero said:
Now that I can whip the camera around like a madman and get no mud why would I want to put a camera on a tripod and shoot static foliage? Especially in NYC? I am not even going to spend 3 minutes of my time even trying to.
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It's not because you want to do that. At least one person here had a story of doing a shoot and there was a very short period where the action in the scene stopped and they got the card speed error.

That's how I found it. I was out shooting wildlife for a short and I paused to grab something off the ground. When I looked up the camera was locked up with the card speed error. I lost all that footage I had just shot. I never got another chance to redo it either.

The point is that this problem doesn't have to be intentional. It'll screw you when you least expect it, especially because it can be very random when all of the conditions are right.
 
guys, have we found a combo of numbers for a hack that will increase the overall bit rate of low detailed (maybe more open ) shoots ? when i do the star chart and landscape (trees) im getting into 40's mb , but avg shots im still only getting 10-20 ..im asking this because it seems with mjpeg we seem to have found numbers that will take the not so detailed shots and bring the bit rate up (very close to the high detailed shots) ..maybe the question is regarding avchd are the low level shots even if they are only at 10-20mb improved with the the hack as much as the mjpeg low level shots with a hack?
 
AVC is an efficient and dynamic codec in that it will only use the amount of bitrate it needs to properly work. What *was* happening was that the original firmware limited the bitrate to BELOW what was optimum for detailed shots and therefor we got MUD. Once we were able to get higher bitrates the camera is now able to properly determine what it needs without a bitrate bottleneck.

Of course this only really matters in high detail scenes. Higher bitrates in low detailed scenes aren't really necessary at all and those bitrate numbers you see reported are only what the camera needed.

Anyway, I think you might have missed the point that there is no way to force extra detail by forcing increased bitrates on AVCHD. You can't force AVCHD to make higher bitrate video when it's not needed. You can only allow it to use more bitrate when it does need it.

MJPEG is not as efficient as AVCHD and can lose more information when compressing to lower bitrates, that's why it needs a comparably higher bitrate to compete with AVCHD. The problem is compounded by the fact that they physically look different simply by the compression used so it's much harder to compare one to the other to gauge actual bitrate-to-quality between the two codecs.
 
Svart said:
That's how I found it. I was out shooting wildlife for a short and I paused to grab something off the ground. When I looked up the camera was locked up with the card speed error. I lost all that footage I had just shot. I never got another chance to redo it either.
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And worse of all , you lost the entire footage.

At least in the 24/60i you get all what you filmed up to that point. I can't imagine filming something up to the two minute mark, and get the error, and loose it all.

Documentaries- News and live events should " Not Use 24PN " It's not worth the error.

Productions can always do a retake...

Pappas
 
Just to be sure I'm doing things right, here's my methodology:

1. Using 3.40d and a Panasonic 16GB Class 10 card.
2. I have 24PN checked
3. I then try different bitrate variables (using the suggested 'a', 'b' and 'c' settings for Video bitrate FHD, Overall bitrate and Limiting bitrate)
4. Update camera
5. Lens: 14-140 Panny lens
6. Cam locked down on tripod, focused on grass or other high detail areas

If this is correct, then I have a problem in that no setting of the above with 24PN on will not yield a card speed error within 20 secs.

If what I am doing is not correct, can someone point out my errors?

I'm just trying to get native 24P with a better bitrate while hot having to worry about the nature of the scene. I tend to shoot static shots quite a bit, so this is important. Comments as to how to achieve this are welcome.

Cheers,
 
That all looks correct and is what i have done. You need to shoot Pappas's chart though just once to confirm it will lock up, it's a heart stopping moment when it does.
 
simonclivehughes said:
I'm just trying to get native 24P with a better bitrate while hot having to worry about the nature of the scene. I tend to shoot static shots quite a bit, so this is important. Comments as to how to achieve this are welcome.
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Simon, as you've noticed, this type of shot doesn't jibe well with native patch. With your Panny card you should be able to run at least 'C' settings (PTool one's) without the native patch.
 
simonclivehughes said:
I'm getting those heart-stopping moments without the chart. I'm looking for settings that work!

Cheers,
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The B settings haven't failed me with 25pn enabled. Problem is there are other variables like kit lens or manual lens, card brands etc, so you really need to do your own tests with your setup. Just be guided by a similar setup of someone else's as a starting point or guide.
 
The B settings haven't failed me with 25pn enabled. Problem is there are other variables like kit lens or manual lens, card brands etc, so you really need to do your own tests with your setup. Just be guided by a similar setup of someone else's as a starting point or guide.
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B settings, 24 PN, Class 4 card, no problems for me. The way I figure it out is that the max bits on avchd is supposed to be 24 mbits, so 32 is going over the supposed limit but staying close to it. After that you are really pushing it and whatever errors you get don't be surprised.
 
John Caballero said:
B settings, 24 PN, Class 4 card, no problems for me. The way I figure it out is that the max bits on avchd is supposed to be 24 mbits, so 32 is going over the supposed limit but staying close to it. After that you are really pushing it and whatever errors you get don't be surprised.
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John,

Is this with the kit lens? And on a bright, high detail static scene? I'm shooting primarily outdoor landscape shots so it has to be able to handle those conditions.

Cheers,
 
Wide angle, sharp, whole frame in focus, high detail static landscape shots knock out my class 6 card on C settings, but not on B. If you slightly blur the same shot (just out of focus or adjust to a shallow DOF) it passes no problems on C (same if you zoom in a bit, no fail)
 
Maybe I should ask a more basic question... For the type of shooting I do, landscape, travelogue style, should I really worry about trying to shoot at 24P, or just use FHD at the higher bit rates alone?

Cheers,
 
I think that's a great solution Simon, especially if you only shoot low motion (less interlacing artifacts). I plan on having a separate SD card for each FHD mode ..... one with 25pn one without and changing FW on the day to suit.

You still need to shoot both and decide yourself, i had to do this to be 100% certain i knew the differences.

Whatever you decide, just having a higher bitrate and that's all, is a huge difference compared to the original unaltered camera.
 
John,

Is this with the kit lens? And on a bright, high detail static scene? I'm shooting primarily outdoor landscape shots so it has to be able to handle those conditions.

Cheers,
__________________
Simon
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With the kit lens. I haven't done the static no movement shot. Testing a lot of movement for the mud problem. Haven't found any. Amazing, a few more mbits and is gone. I haven't had any card errors at all so far.
 
John Caballero said:
Sorry about that. But you are lucky he didn't whacked you over the head with the stick! We had a very rough time with them for a while. You would be taking pictures or video in the street and like my friend use to say: they would walk up to you and ask: WHAT ARE YOU TAKING PICTURES OF? Even the mayor wanted to pass an ordinance that to be able to take pictures or film, even ordinary people needed all kinds of permits. People protested and didn't happened. After that the police relaxed a bit. But who can blame them for their manners, most of them come to work from Long Island! Oooops! LOL!
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Hahaha! Yeah, this was pre-9/11 when I was visiting there, too. I heard everyone in NYC was kind of nice to each other for awhile right after 9/11. But, now its probably back to good 'ol cynical NYC with an attitude! Fugedaboutit! Oh, and the reason the cop called me stupid for not knowing where the subway was, is because I had a bunch of NYU literature in my hands since I was checking out their film department (hence the train ride up there). :kali:
 
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