My humble review of the HMC150

Justyn said:
that's what i think. It's the media that the killer.. and if I were to do an important shoot and had like 10 hours of footage, the media is so cheap that I could leave it all on the cards for as long as necessary and also have it on the harddrives. Can't do that with P2.. that is too Obama gives all American's a free 16 gig P2 card..
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lol............. got a serious chuckle out of me on that last one
 
Ha, that is funny.. So if someone can give me a little heads up on this. So, 1080 vs 720. They are both HD, we all understand that. But let's say the image quality, codec, and all that techy stuff was the same, would you want to choose 1080 over 720? I do mostly weddings so really it seems like 1080 should be better because it's bigger. But 720 is still considered HD right? Kinda weird, kinda confused. Am I making any sense? I understand the the 150 is better at 720, but the 170 is better at 1080. What if the 150 was the same at both 720 and 1080. Which would you choose and why.

Thanks

b.p.
 
Well, all broadcast is at 720p or 1080i, so It is not like your client is going to come to you and say "you only shot this in 720p!"

Unless you are going to the big screen, I don't see a need to go away from 720p.

Heck, a lot fo stuff is still delivered on DVD.

When I watch HD it is light years ahead of SD.

I don't think you could say that about 720p vs. 1080p.
 
Yes the 150 can record 1080p as well as 720p.
Many people are saying that the 170's sweet spot is 1080p and the 150's sweet spot is 720p.


I've seen 1080 HD and 720 HD and I for one cannot tell the difference. I have never been able to look at HD TV or HD DVD's and say “oh, that's 720” or “that was shot in 1080” so when I compare the PH 720 and 1080 modes they look about the same to me.
I think that is the nature of 1080 and 720... Unless you're looking at specs or charts I doubt many people can tell.


Now can we see a difference between a 5K HD camera and 150K HD camera?
Yep...
 
Hidef1080 said:
Yes the 150 can record 1080p as well as 720p.
Many people are saying that the 170's sweet spot is 1080p and the 150's sweet spot is 720p.
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Right... but not in all circumstances! The difference beteen the "sweet spots" of the two cameras is because of the CODEC, not the sensors or optics. Common wisdom shows the Panny prosumer HD cams tend to resolve a bit more than DVCProHD 720p can deliver, somewhat less than DVCProHD 1080p.

The 170 shoots DVCProHD, which uses non-square pixels, so 720p is 960x720; 1080 is 1280x1080. Each of the three actual pixel-shifted sensors is 960x540. There's a lot of argument about the exact benefit of pixel-shifting, but certtainly the cams can generally resolve something more than 960 pixels horizontally. So, for 720p, DVCPro HD's 960x720 resolution is likely a limiting factor. If we guess (as is common) that pixel shifting adds about aq 30% resolution increase, then the 1280 pixels of DVCPro HD's 1280x1080 mode should be able to handle all the resolution the sensors provide.

The 150, on the other hand, shoots AVCHD, which in most modes (all but the lowest-quality mode) provides full-raster square-pixel HD - 1280x720 and 1920x1080. So, the 720p mode has as much horizontal resolution as DVCProHD's 1080p mode, and is likely to be able to handle all the resolution the camera can deliver. Further, at slower frame rates (24p and MAYBE* 30p), 720p footage is much less compressed than 1080p footage (since the frame size is smaller but the data rate is the same).

So, for this reason, in many situations, the sweet spot of the HMC is 720p, while the sweet spot of the HVX/HPX170 is 1080p.

HOWEVER, DVCProHD provides 4:2:2 color, while AVCHD provides only 4:2:0 color. So the color resolution of the HVX/HPX in 720 is better than the HMC in 720, and better in 1080 than the HMC in 1080. And, though 720p on the HMC seems sufficient for the camera's intensity resolution, it doesn't provide all the color resolution the camera can deliver. So, for situations where color resolution is of great importance (e.g., for keying), 1080p on the HMC will be a better choice.

So, on the HVX/HPX170, you can trade space (recording time on P2 cards) for resolution; the compression ratio will stay constant. On the HMC (in PH mode) you can trade compression ratio for color resolution; the intensity resolution will stay pretty constant.

Cheers,
Barry


* not sure 'til we see about 24p being "native" and 30p being "over 60", and whether the codec can handle the "over 60" 720/30p footage efficiently...
 
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Hi Edweirdo,

I've been following the review and thread and realized I failed to drop a note to say that I appreciate the review - thanks a lot.:beer:
 
impressive creations said:
Thanks Bassman.. So are you saying 1080p would rule over 720P, The 150 can shoot in 1080p right?

Thanks,
b.p.

Selling a 100B with 40 hours if anyone is interested. I put more info in the market palce post...
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Actually I am saying the opposite.

I don't think the difference between 720p and 1080p is going to be that large in a real world application.

People will notice the difference between HD & SD if the HD is delivered on Blu-ray, but I don't think they will be able to tell or care if the Blu-ray was shot on 720p or 1080p.

You have to factor in a lot of folks might have 720p televisions and are used to watching 720/1080i broadcast signals which look great.

I think of it like the megapixel race in still cameras.

More resolution has diminishing returns after a while.
 
Thanks Bassman and Ullanta.. OK. Makes much more sense to me now. I thought if you have more pixels, well, you must have a better picture. Yeah, I am beginning to understand how the compression can work against 1080 on the 150. So, if 720 is the best for weddings and slow mo's. There you have it.. Ordering mine this week. Maybe two of them if I can sell my 100B with 40 hours on it. Yeeee haaa.

I really appreciate everyone on this board. What an incredible resource. Praise the Lord!! and I mean that!!!

B.p.
 
Great review Edweirdo. I am finding as I use the camera more - it is a lot more sensitive than the DVX100. The cinelike effects seem to be magnified in this camera. I'm sure a lot of this is due to the HD quality - you can get just a FANTASTIC shot, but you really need to dial it in. Love it so far, especially the ease of tapeless/headless recording and editing.
 
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Bucknfl said:
The lens hood doesn't even have a feaking locking pin to keep it in place. If the hood is bumped a little bit it can cause vignetting on wide shots.
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It does lock into place, if your lens hood is freely moving you have not given it the last "sap" into a locked position. From this position you could not inadvertantly bump it and have it shift out of place and vignette the footage.

Best,

Jan
 
impressive creations said:
Ha, that is funny.. So if someone can give me a little heads up on this. So, 1080 vs 720. They are both HD, we all understand that. But let's say the image quality, codec, and all that techy stuff was the same, would you want to choose 1080 over 720? I do mostly weddings so really it seems like 1080 should be better because it's bigger. But 720 is still considered HD right? Kinda weird, kinda confused. Am I making any sense? I understand the the 150 is better at 720, but the 170 is better at 1080. What if the 150 was the same at both 720 and 1080. Which would you choose and why.

Thanks

b.p.
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An indirect answer to your question.

1. I don't see much difference between 720 and 1080 image quality on the HMC150. It's there, but remember we are talking about pixel peeping.

2. 720P is certainly HD and easily looks good on screens up to 50". I have had a JVC 720P camera since 2004 and I can tell you 720P looks good and there is essentially no way anyone can tell the image from a 1080 image.

3. I shot a wedding this last weekend with the HMC150 in 1080i. I shot 1080i because it looks great and it matches my b-camera (Canon XH-A1) output format.

As far as what format to shoot in, it dosent matter too much, but you may want to match it to your final project native delivery format. For example, I am still authoring HD-DVDs. For this I need 1080i, 720P will not work with my software. For Blu-Ray, 720P will work, but 1080(i) is easier. For this last wedding, they want NTSC DVD, so it just dosent matter.
 
3. I shot a wedding this last weekend with the HMC150 in 1080i. I shot 1080i because it looks great and it matches my b-camera (Canon XH-A1) output format.


How good is the HMC in low light? Does it match the A1? Z1? EX1? How does it cut with the A1?
 
I'd be interested in knowing how well it matches the Canon XH-A1 as that is our main cam at weddings.
 
I too have an A1, and like its look.
Now I find myself in need of a second (and perhaps third) cam, and was looking at the HMC150. Its drawback, from my standpoint was that I would need tom buy two, as I don't believe it's possible to cut A1 footage with HMC footage in the same project, they are different formats.
I use Premiere Pro CS3, and I'd love it if it were really a do-able do. Am I wrong here in my assumptions?
 
Sewolla, I believe you are right - Canon cameras always seem to have the sharpest & flattest image. We were cutting DVX & XH-A1 footage together for a while and it was very obvious to me although our clients couldn't tell unless we pointed it out.

After we got rid of our DVXs we were inter-cutting XH-A1 with JVC ProHD footage and I have to say that the JVC's image was a lot closer to the Panasonic look. There's something sterile about the XH-A1's stock image but it's still been a workhorse of a camera for us just like our DVXs (takes a beating but keeps on ticking!) I just hope the HMC150 is the same!
 
accelv said:
3. I shot a wedding this last weekend with the HMC150 in 1080i. I shot 1080i because it looks great and it matches my b-camera (Canon XH-A1) output format.


How good is the HMC in low light? Does it match the A1? Z1? EX1? How does it cut with the A1?
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The HMC is pretty good in low light. Better sensitivity (seems like 1 stop) and less noise than the XH-A1. Because of this, I wouldn't try to use low light A1 shots cut with HMC150 shots. There is too much difference, the A1 noise pattern becomes very obvious and the picture appears darker. It took a week to match presets to get the cameras looking very close to each other in good light. Basically, you have to tone down the HMC150 dramatically to match the flat look of the XH-A1.

Im selling the A1s quickly before an A2 comes out and destroys their value. Im going to get a second HMC150, A1 matching is too much trouble.

Note: the XH-A1 is still a very fine camera and beats the HMC150 in a few areas, like the onboard mics. Those onboard A1 mics have been very useful for an ambient or backup track. When a tapeless A2 with an improved sensor block comes out, I may switch back to Canon.
 
sewolla said:
I too have an A1, and like its look.
Now I find myself in need of a second (and perhaps third) cam, and was looking at the HMC150. Its drawback, from my standpoint was that I would need tom buy two, as I don't believe it's possible to cut A1 footage with HMC footage in the same project, they are different formats.
I use Premiere Pro CS3, and I'd love it if it were really a do-able do. Am I wrong here in my assumptions?
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A1 1080i and HMC150 1080i footage work on the timeline fine and create the same size picture. HDV 1440 uses non-square pixels to create a 1920 X1080 actual image size.

I have authored several A1 & HMC dual camera projects in HD, NTSC DV & NTSC DV widescreen and they technically work and look fine. I use Sony Vegas 8.0c.

You are in a dilemma, I wouldn't buy another A1 right now because an A2 is bound to be coming very soon. However, using two different cameras, batteries and media is a pain too.
 
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