Is the HVX horrible in low light

G

grokgod

New member
Hello all,

I really need some help here.

I was just about to buy the HVX and all its accessories when my new DP told me that he had work:crybaby: ed with the HVX in the past and that the low light abilites were horrible.
Too much noise , it was unusable, he basically told me NOT to buy it, that we couldnt shoot my horror/thriller with it.

Not unless we flooded it with alot of light, he says its great in light but low light NO way!

Now I dont have experience with the HVX, but I know from the Panny lx1 and lx2 cameras that they ahd serious Low Light noise Issues and was afraid that this issue was translated to the video cams.

Is this true, does anyone here have experience with the HVX under these conditions.

I appreciate the help frmo anyone, I have become desperate.

thank
 
what are you comparing it to?
Will you be in very low light levels or just a dark look with standard lighting?

Its definately not horrible if you just want a one word answer.
 
This is actually one major point of contention for low key lighting styles, in that at low light levels the smaller chip size creates more noise.

This avoidable from what I have heard by making sure you keep minimum exposure levesl at like 35ire..

The trick to achieving your low light horror movie is to set your black point in the final color correction, and possibly run some mild DNR.


My thoughts on the matter.

However, if your DP can create the images you want on another camera you might wanna just go with that. The XL-H1 and JVC cameras can both produce some amazing looking footage even with the HDV CODEC.


DEAN
 
Depending on how you set up the camera you will get different results.

Here is footage I shot at night of a woman on stage lit by stage lighting.
The settings were roughly from the LOW NOISE settings from Barry Green's HVX book.

The zip file contains a short clip saved out of FinalCut in DVCPROHD 720 30p. - No color correction was done.

http://www.x2creative.com/dloads/LoLightSample.zip

There is some noise in the black areas but I was surprised and happy with how well the HVX performed.

Kevin
 
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kevinM said:
Depending on how you set up the camera you will get different results.

Here is footage I shot at night of a woman on stage lit by stage lighting.
The settings were roughly from the LOW NOISE settings from Barry Green's HVX book.

The zip file contains a short clip saved out of FinalCut in DVCPROHD 720 30p. - No color correction was done.

http://www.x2creative.com/dloads/LoLightSample.zip

There is some noise in the black areas but I was surprised and happy with how well the HVX performed.

Kevin
Click to expand...

I've noticed, even with low-light settings outside of the Cinelike modes, that even in the darks in clothing there's still a nice amount of noise. It's like you have to hit every single thing with light, blow it all out, and then stop down or something.

I'm guessing a normal audience wouldn't notice, though.
 
Kholi said:
I've noticed, even with low-light settings outside of the Cinelike modes, that even in the darks in clothing there's still a nice amount of noise. It's like you have to hit every single thing with light, blow it all out, and then stop down or something.

I'm guessing a normal audience wouldn't notice, though.
Click to expand...

The Low Noise settings use Cinelike V.

I'm viewing on a calibrated production monitor and it looks pretty darn good for a small chip camera in an extreme, uncontrolled lighting situation.
 
kevinM said:
The Low Noise settings use Cinelike V.

I'm viewing on a calibrated production monitor and it looks pretty darn good for a small chip camera in an extreme, uncontrolled lighting situation.
Click to expand...

The low-noise setting I've been trying is B. Press and HD norm.

Either way, I guess people have different tastes. That's basically the bottom line.
 
I'm not sure what your exact situation is but I'll tell you a little about my experience and give some general advice. I had purchased the hvx for low/no budge narrative, I waited impatiently for it to come out, when I got it I had a hard time dealing with the work flow and archival process as well as the added expense that shooting p2 involves. Changing cards, offloading data, and backing up data will add cost or time and complexity to your shoot or all three. The hvx requires a substantial investment in p2 "infrastructure". You will need at least two p2 cards, a storage system on your set to offload to as well as a hefty backup/archive hardisk storage solution, both of which grow in size and cost with the quality that you capture in. This adds thousands to the cost of the camera alone and the workflow might end up distracting you at times from what you need to be focusing on on your set. I did not have a firestore or cineporter or panasonics p2 storage to help me out, so just be aware of what shooting to p2 can involve. I also found that I needed more light than I expected to get images I was happy with. I was surprised with the amount of noise I was seeing where I did not expect to see it. Extra lighting equipment and setup will add time and cost to your shoot if you happen to share my opinion. I think its a great camera and it can certainly produce incredible footage but I was on a very tight budget and schedule, so its workflow and lighting requirements did not work for me. Again this is just my opinion, but if your situation is similar to what mine was, I would purchase the canon xh-a1. With the thousands that you save you can use it to pay talented* people in key production roles on your shoot, as well as actors and food. You might even give that entire sum to an "experienced" dp/lighting gaffer with equipment who will make much more of a difference to the quality of your film than any of the cameras in this range! No disrespect aimed at your current dp here, but get the best you can find and afford for your film. I suspect your shoot might have the same issues that mine had (as many do), so hopefully some of these words will help you figure out what to do. -goodluck!
 
you might also want to consider that if you plan on using controlled lighting to illuminate your indoor/night/low-light locations that your end results may be much more polished and pleasing than if you do not use controlled lighting. Therefore if your budget allows, you may want to still go with the HVX in the mindset of lighting your low lit scenes.

Ask yourself if the XH-A1 or other lower cost camcorder has all of the features that you want in comparison to the HVX.
 
What is described as noise is often more compression artifacts with the HVX200.
Banding noise, circular patterns in the shade and on equal lowlight colorful surfaces.

These compression artifacts (banding noise) will live next to the dancing noise you see in the blacks. You need to light the scene precisely with more and more light, overshoot a stop and crush the blacks in post, or use one off the many recipes trying to avoid this banding noise. Those cures work all with more or less results.
 
this is from a music video that I directed the photography for, about two weekends ago. it is raw, no color correction, no contrast adjustments, all in camera settings. I haven't really had any problems with noise with the HVX, as long as I had a light kit.

hiphop_06.jpg
 
Nice pic! How's the voice? It is looking good and shows that it is possible in some situations. (It is almost a miracle, but should be basic rule) But noise is seen in moving images. It is hard to see in a still, but I have seen dancing noise and banding noise in many HVX shoots and video's, it is discussed to the end in message boards also.

So do a research on the subject to find out more.
 
Kholi said:
The low-noise setting I've been trying is B. Press and HD norm.

Either way, I guess people have different tastes. That's basically the bottom line.
Click to expand...

I agree. The amount of noise that is acceptable is a matter of taste. But if someone is talking about the HVX being "worthless" in low light or not being acceptable in terms of production standards, I disagree.

I think the bad rap that the HVX gets in terms of noise is in part due to the fact that it is a low priced camera and therefore accessable ot a broad range of users. Many of whom have no idea how to set up a camera for a given situation. They pull it out of the box and start shooting. They see lots of noise in some situations. They report their results on this and other forums. They post their footage. They give it to a post house, and the perception of noise grows greater than the reality. If the Varicam was accessible to novice users, I'm sure there would be a ton of inaccurate perceptions about it too.

There are plenty of people getting good low-light results from this camera.

If you really want to know the limitations of this camera and whether or not it meets your standards, set it up with an HD production monitor and spend time learning what settings give you what you want. Barry's book is also a great place to start.

Don't get me wrong, the HVX is not THE camera for all situations. Not by a long shot. But if you know how to set it up, it is far better than many people think. It has not let me down yet.

Your mileage and experience may vary.
 
kevinM said:
I agree. The amount of noise that is acceptable is a matter of taste. But if someone is talking about the HVX being "worthless" in low light or not being acceptable in terms of production standards, I disagree.

I think the bad rap that the HVX gets in terms of noise is in part due to the fact that it is a low priced camera and therefore accessable ot a broad range of users. Many of whom have no idea how to set up a camera for a given situation. They pull it out of the box and start shooting. They see lots of noise in some situations. They report their results on this and other forums. They post their footage. They give it to a post house, and the perception of noise grows greater than the reality. If the Varicam was accessible to novice users, I'm sure there would be a ton of inaccurate perceptions about it too.

There are plenty of people getting good low-light results from this camera.

If you really want to know the limitations of this camera and whether or not it meets your standards, set it up with an HD production monitor and spend time learning what settings give you what you want. Barry's book is also a great place to start.

Don't get me wrong, the HVX is not THE camera for all situations. Not by a long shot. But if you know how to set it up, it is far better than many people think. It has not let me down yet.

Your mileage and experience may vary.
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Well said.
 
Kevin said it so well..


I freaked out when I saw the noise that was in the footage shot at the dimly lit camera showroom... our first HVX footage. But the same footage would have looked bad with my DV camera... or with a varicam. Or really bad with a film cam. Would have had to shoot with 500 stock film... over processed and wide open. Like crap.


Now.. if you know how to create contrast in your image.. edge lighting and use the cc in the camera and in post.. It looks glorious. Better than any HDV camera that I've used and I've now shot with all the major brands... The sony being just recently.

I'd say that some camera tests would affirm that this camera offers so many more options and looks great in "well lite" simulated lighting. Sure whipping it out and going dogma might not be the best..


Here's what I shot in really low light and added some CC

http://www.electriccowtheater.com/video/Factory.mov


But again, isn't this a horror movie? A bit of grit and effect goes a long way.. This camera isn't a wedding event videographer.. go anywhere under any lighting camera. It's NOT.. but that God for that!
 
Beautiful footage, care to share some details on your camera and scene file settings, as well as some details on your desaturating in post?

Don't underestimate the HVX as a run & gun camera - smart run & gunners know how to work with available/minimum light, looks like it'll do just fine. And the dogma people don't care about noise anyway :)
 
Not sure who said it was unacceptable or unusable. Just said that it's noisey. And it is.

You've both said the same thing -- This camera requires a well lit situation. Which means it's poor in lowlight, obversely.

Not just in lowlight, but in dark colors like cloth and skin. Paint it however you want to, if it works for you that's fine. I don't know if I'd say it was "horrible" in low light, but it sure as hell ain't awesome.

And, as far as HDV goes, the A1 is just right in lowlight, and it's 1.5k less than the HVX200. Might not get the features, but the image and 24f(p) is there.

Gotta love the HVX200, though. When you have a fifty ton truck (exaggeration), it's glorious.

Also, it brings to mind "content is King". In Gruzman's forever video and in the Midnight Film trailer (www.midnight-film.com) you can see that the content draws you away from the "banding" or "Noise". And the HVX shines in a lot of parts, showing an image that's really sharp and resolved at times.

Just a matter of using the camera to it's best and hoping for great results. I sent my HVX200 to Cuba this weekend. It'll be interesting to see what the DP does with it.
 
DrHST said:
Beautiful footage, care to share some details on your camera and scene file settings, as well as some details on your desaturating in post?

Don't underestimate the HVX as a run & gun camera - smart run & gunners know how to work with available/minimum light, looks like it'll do just fine. And the dogma people don't care about noise anyway :)
Click to expand...

This is the reason that good lowlight performance is a good thing. Not everyone can afford to pull a lot of light just to get an acceptable image. It's only better for micro filmmakers who can't get a lot of light in an indoor or outdoor setup, or afford generators and the like, that a camera perform very well in low-light situations.

It makes pulling off a great image for less all the more better.
 
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