Mutli Cam shoot with one camera operator need advice

[offbeatbryce]

I am filming a performance tomorrow in a school gym. I will be the only operator. I will have one camera to move around with and another stationary on a tripod up front focused on the whole stage. I went to the rehearsal tonight and notied a few problems that might occur during the shoot tomorrow.

Sometimes only one or two people are on stage in the center and other times there are 4 and they fill the whole stage. If I'm operating one camera and moving around I can't zoom in on the stationary one when there is one or two people in the center. This will cause lots of open space around the one or two person that's unneeded. If I can't zoom in what do I do? Can I zoom in in post? I think that will just make it too blurry.

I don't have another camera operator.

During rehearsal tonight I set my zebra stripes to 70 ire and the stage lights weren't bright enough to get to 70 IRE. What do I do about this? The people performing won't let me bring extra lights as they don't want it to interfere with the lights for the crowd. My rehersal footage came out with skin tone at 40IRE which is very underexposed. I can bump it up in post but then you get digital noise.

I'm shooting with 1/60 shutter and iris all the way open. I have natural density filter off.

 

[Jaime Valles]

Does your stationary camera shoot in 4K resolution? If so, you could zoom in during post and not get too much of a quality hit if the final delivered video is 1080p.

As far as exposure, I'd rather bump up the ISO while shooting to get good exposure. It usually looks cleaner (to my eye) to shoot at ISO 3200 than to shoot at ISO 800 and then bump it up in post 2 stops.

 

[offbeatbryce]

Does your stationary camera shoot in 4K resolution? If so, you could zoom in during post and not get too much of a quality hit if the final delivered video is 1080p.

As far as exposure, I'd rather bump up the ISO while shooting to get good exposure. It usually looks cleaner (to my eye) to shoot at ISO 3200 than to shoot at ISO 800 and then bump it up in post 2 stops.

unfortunately my cameras only film in 1080p. I have a very low budget and couldn't afford 4k. My camera doesn't have iso but it does have video gain which I think is the same thing but that produces digital noise as well if I go to far.

 

[Ron Evans]

I shoot with my wife who does the closeups but I always have a full stage camera set with AE shift just slightly negative ( around - 0.5 EV depending on the show, lots of light -0.5, dark -0.7 ) so it manages exposure just a little lower than the automatic would want. I set focus with touch focus with the framing I want ( do not zoom in, focus then frame, on my little Sony's that does not work ). I also set shutter at 1/60 on all the cameras, WB at indoor preset on all too and shoot in 60P for most ( my NX5U will only shoot 60i ). Also set a gain limit at 21db which is fine for my Sony's. My AX100 and AX53 will shoot UHD but only at 30P so do not use as I like the smooth look of 60i/P. I have a FDR-AX1 that I use UHD 60P and with that I can crop/pan/zoom on a 1920x1080 timeline . However the camera is only really usable in good light.

Not sure what camera you would use for the full stage but I think most of the Sony's and Panasonics can be set like I set the AX53 for the full stage in my case. Cutting to the full stage in editing will give you time to get your camera around to the other side of the stage etc.

I set up my wife's AX100 the same as the full stage ( though she does know how to manage the AE shift if she has to by watching Zebra ) so that she does not have to worry about exposure just frame and focus ( touch focus )

 

[offbeatbryce]

I shoot with my wife who does the closeups but I always have a full stage camera set with AE shift just slightly negative ( around - 0.5 EV depending on the show, lots of light -0.5, dark -0.7 ) so it manages exposure just a little lower than the automatic would want. I set focus with touch focus with the framing I want ( do not zoom in, focus then frame, on my little Sony's that does not work ). I also set shutter at 1/60 on all the cameras, WB at indoor preset on all too and shoot in 60P for most ( my NX5U will only shoot 60i ). Also set a gain limit at 21db which is fine for my Sony's. My AX100 and AX53 will shoot UHD but only at 30P so do not use as I like the smooth look of 60i/P. I have a FDR-AX1 that I use UHD 60P and with that I can crop/pan/zoom on a 1920x1080 timeline . However the camera is only really usable in good light.

Not sure what camera you would use for the full stage but I think most of the Sony's and Panasonics can be set like I set the AX53 for the full stage in my case. Cutting to the full stage in editing will give you time to get your camera around to the other side of the stage etc.

I set up my wife's AX100 the same as the full stage ( though she does know how to manage the AE shift if she has to by watching Zebra ) so that she does not have to worry about exposure just frame and focus ( touch focus )

I would be using the Canon xa10 as the stationary camera. That camera doesn't have AE shift as far as I know but it does have Aperture Priority and Shutter Priority modes. I thought about it more last night and I think it would be best to put it into Shutter Priority at 1/60 shutter and let the camera expose on it's own.

 

[Bruce Watson]

During rehearsal tonight I set my zebra stripes to 70 ire and the stage lights weren't bright enough to get to 70 IRE. What do I do about this?

Increase exposure. More light per frame. Off the top of my head: 1) open shutter for longer (lower shutter speed), 2) use a lower frame rate so you can use an even lower shutter speed, 3) open up iris (shoot wide open), 4) increase ISO, 5) some combination of the above.

I'm shooting with 1/60 shutter and iris all the way open. I have natural density filter off.

Shoot at 1/30. Better, reduce your frame rate to 24fps, and shoot at 1/24. And no, I don't want to hear about the precious 180 shutter rule. You've got more pressing problems than that.

More light per frame -> less noise.

 

[offbeatbryce]

Increase exposure. More light per frame. Off the top of my head: 1) open shutter for longer (lower shutter speed), 2) use a lower frame rate so you can use an even lower shutter speed, 3) open up iris (shoot wide open), 4) increase ISO, 5) some combination of the above.



Shoot at 1/30. Better, reduce your frame rate to 24fps, and shoot at 1/24. And no, I don't want to hear about the precious 180 shutter rule. You've got more pressing problems than that.

More light per frame -> less noise.

1/30 caused the people to be too blurry during rehearsal. They move around fast. decreasing it to 24fps is gonna be more blurry.

Also my camera is stupid i guess because it wont' let me adjust exposure more. It has a maximum of f.3 and won't go above that

 

[Ron Evans]

Page 66 in the XA10 manual says it does have exposure compensation. You can set by touch on the LCD or using < and > controls on the LCD. I agree set shutter speed and let the camera adjust iris and gain with a gain limit you set. I think you can set the shift to -0.5 like I do with the Sony's but you need to try yourself a few times before setting for the show I think. On my newer Sony's 18 or 21db of gain is fine for a gain limit for stage show. You may also be surprised that the camera will not open up the iris before applying gain. I guess the engineers know where the max performance is for the camera !!!

You may want to try this to make sure it truly is an AE adjustment rather than fixing at a value. Set this way then really move to a definite different light area and watch it change .

 

[Bassman2003]

Bruce, I would respectfully disagree with this advice. 1/30th shutter will cause a lot of motion blur for not that much light gain overall. You risk ruining the video from a motion aspect to lessen the noise a bit. I would rather have proper motion and fix the noise with Neat Video. Same thing with going to 24p. If this a live stage event, 24p is a tough sell. Any camera movement will be judder city and there may be a lot of camera movement.

To the OP - you might be trying to do the impossible. If there is constant change in light levels you need to be at the camera to adjust. In my experience, the camera will get it wrong if left on auto in a theatrical environment. You are probably better staying at the camera and setting up the second camera right next the other and operating both. Lockoff the wide shot but adjust the iris when the lights change. Focus your time operating the closeup camera. That is the best one person can do.

 

[offbeatbryce]

Bruce, I would respectfully disagree with this advice. 1/30th shutter will cause a lot of motion blur for not that much light gain overall. You risk ruining the video from a motion aspect to lessen the noise a bit. I would rather have proper motion and fix the noise with Neat Video. Same thing with going to 24p. If this a live stage event, 24p is a tough sell. Any camera movement will be judder city and there may be a lot of camera movement.

To the OP - you might be trying to do the impossible. If there is constant change in light levels you need to be at the camera to adjust. In my experience, the camera will get it wrong if left on auto in a theatrical environment. You are probably better staying at the camera and setting up the second camera right next the other and operating both. Lockoff the wide shot but adjust the iris when the lights change. Focus your time operating the closeup camera. That is the best one person can do.

Well the issue with having two cameras next to each other is because there is three acts where someone is a piano and you can't see the piano from the front of or back of stage.

At front of stage the piano is sideways and I couldn't pan over and get the piano from the front due to heads in the way.

At the back you can't see the piano at all.

The person paying me acts in the performance and doesn't want me in the aisle which would be the only way to stay with two cameras.

 

[Bassman2003]

Your only option is to mount a GoPro sized camera to show the piano person. Like I said, you can not do the impossible. I can 't image the venue want you moving around during a performance either.

 

[Ron Evans]

I shoot about 22 shows a year and always leave the small Sony's for full stage in automatic, AE shift as I mentioned before totally unattend. The only time this may be a problem is for the stage going black with just a single actor in a spotlight. In that situation both my wife and I have that in closeup view correctly exposed. Even in this situation the newer AX53 seems to manage just fine as I think it figures out it is a spot light and adjusts even more !!! I do not know the Canon XA10 but from the manual it can do the same. Looks very similar to my NX30U. From the description I was not sure whether the AE shift fixes the exposure or in fact is an AE shift like the Sony's . A simple test would find out really quick. The lens sweet spot is where the engineers will set the exposure to give the best performance which is why I like using auto with shift as I feel then I am befitting from the engineers knowledge. From looking at the data code on the Sony's most of the time the iris is not full open and there is some gain.

 

[offbeatbryce]

I shoot about 22 shows a year and always leave the small Sony's for full stage in automatic, AE shift as I mentioned before totally unattend. The only time this may be a problem is for the stage going black with just a single actor in a spotlight. In that situation both my wife and I have that in closeup view correctly exposed. Even in this situation the newer AX53 seems to manage just fine as I think it figures out it is a spot light and adjusts even more !!! I do not know the Canon XA10 but from the manual it can do the same. Looks very similar to my NX30U. From the description I was not sure whether the AE shift fixes the exposure or in fact is an AE shift like the Sony's . A simple test would find out really quick. The lens sweet spot is where the engineers will set the exposure to give the best performance which is why I like using auto with shift as I feel then I am befitting from the engineers knowledge. From looking at the data code on the Sony's most of the time the iris is not full open and there is some gain.

Thanks Ron,

I think that should be fine. I tested it out just now and it works pretty well at home

 

[Ron Evans]

Yes I have found the shift works well. The Sony's overexpose a little so most of the time even shooting family stuff with auto focus I still have the AE shift at about - 0.5. Much easier to just bring up in editing rather than loose the highlights. For the AX53 or NX30U ( the main cameras I use for full stage unattended ) they are set manual focus set with touch focus, gain limit at 18 or 21db, WB fixed at indoor, 1/60 shutter, 60P and AE shift at -0.5 or 0.7 as I mentioned before. They both track fast light changes on stage very well even crazy flashing lights for a school dance performance.

 

[Bruce Watson]

1/30 caused the people to be too blurry during rehearsal. They move around fast. decreasing it to 24fps is gonna be more blurry.

Also my camera is stupid i guess because it wont' let me adjust exposure more. It has a maximum of f.3 and won't go above that

It's a balancing act. In your case you get to trade shutter speed (light) for noise.

 

[Bruce Watson]

Bruce, I would respectfully disagree with this advice. 1/30th shutter will cause a lot of motion blur for not that much light gain overall.

Dropping from 1/60 to 1/30 doubles the amount of light per frame. One stop improvement. This is "not that much light gain"? Might be for you; I've been in situation where I would kill (figuratively) for another stop.

The thing is, the laws of physics aren't going to make an exception for the OP. He seems to be worried about the level of noise in his image due to underexposure. Since he can't add light to increase exposure, all he can do is work with the camera to increase exposure. If that means more motion blur, then that's a choice the OP gets to make. He's basically balancing motion blur with noise.

Sadly, there's no magic bullet available.

 

[Ron Evans]

If one wants smooth motion and shoots at 60i or 60P then 1/60 is about the slowest one can go. Also on my small Sony's the image is very good at 15db and mostlly acceptable for my subject matter at 18 or 21. At these levels they see more in the dark than I can !!! If there is a little noise it is easy to remove with Neat and at least then one gets the motion characteristics needed.

 

[offbeatbryce]

Yes I have found the shift works well. The Sony's overexpose a little so most of the time even shooting family stuff with auto focus I still have the AE shift at about - 0.5. Much easier to just bring up in editing rather than loose the highlights. For the AX53 or NX30U ( the main cameras I use for full stage unattended ) they are set manual focus set with touch focus, gain limit at 18 or 21db, WB fixed at indoor, 1/60 shutter, 60P and AE shift at -0.5 or 0.7 as I mentioned before. They both track fast light changes on stage very well even crazy flashing lights for a school dance performance.

Whenever I set to 59.94 fps no more additional light enters the camera. It's the same as if I have it set to 29.97fps

Also, the white balance setting for me indoor has never worked. I always go with tungsten

 

[Ron Evans]

Whenever I set to 59.94 fps no more additional light enters the camera. It's the same as if I have it set to 29.97fps

Also, the white balance setting for me indoor has never worked. I always go with tungsten

That is correct. 29.97fps interlace is the same exposure rate as 59.97Progressive. For interlace the camera is exposing 59.94fields per second instead of full frames so the temporal motion is the same as 59.94 progressive. Very confusing for lots of people. 29.97fps is timecode as well as sync signal for interlace equipment signalling the start of a 2 field sequence. The only difference is in one case a field ( odd or even field ) is recorded and the other a full frame is recorded. Interlace has the same temporal motion but with half the vertical resolution that has to be made up by the playback system. 29.97 progressive is totally different. Then the true exposure rate is different. I do not think the XA10 records 59.97 progressive only interlace which is called 29.97fps by convention. Called 60i in the manual on page 50.

Tungsten is the indoor setting.

 

[offbeatbryce]

That is correct. 29.97fps interlace is the same exposure rate as 59.97Progressive. For interlace the camera is exposing 59.97fields per second instead of full frames so the temporal motion is the same as 59.97 progressive. Very confusing for lots of people. 29.97fps is timecode as well as sync signal for interlace equipment signalling the start of a 2 field sequence. The only difference is in one case a field ( odd or even field ) is recorded and the other a full frame is recorded. Interlace has the same temporal motion but with half the vertical resolution that has to be made up by the playback system. 29.97 progressive is totally different. Then the true exposure rate is different. I do not think the XA10 records 59.97 progressive only interlace which is called 29.97fps by convention. Called 60i in the manual on page 50.

Tungsten is the indoor setting.

oh, lol then I wonder why my canon xa10 has both an indoor and tungsten setting??? weird. Anyway you are correct that 601 is 29.97. I do however also have the xa25 and that one shoots in tru 60fps but the mode is 59.94. Very weird indeed that both cameras call it the same thing yet the xa25 shows in premiere it's 59.94fps with the 25 and the 10 is 29.97. Never could figure that out. I am saving up money for a nice 4K camera and eventually would like to ditch the 25 and 10 cameras and replace them with two cameras that film in 4k but right now I don't have the money.