Music video shot with FS700 + O7Q + Ronin

[boosh]

Thanks. This thread says speed booster has distorsion and CA and show examples of CA in image: http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?345521-To-Speedbooster-or-not-to-Speedbooster

You don't agree?

Never had a problem with CA with my speed booster. I shoot with it 100% of the time so all the videos I've posted have been shot with it. It's possible you would get some CA using cheaper lenses but if you're using decent glass it shouldn't be an issue. As for the dynamic range, we could analyse the tiny differences until the cows come home but by eye to me it looks better than a dslr, about the same amount as an FS7 or recent canon C series camera. With my eyes I only notice more dynamic range in images from an Alexa or RED. If that's what I see, it's incredibly unlikely my clients will see any different.

 

[abreu-canedo]

This is a quick little DR test / mapping of the FS700 on Slog-2 (2000 ISO). The pictures of the monitor were taken with an iphone, so rely more on the false color and the parade. Each chip is a .6ND, so each chip represents a 2 stop step. I generally rate the FS700 as a 10-stop camera before you start hitting the noise floor hard. But since Slog-2 compresses the lower pat of the curve more, you can apply noise reduction to clean up the noise floor to gain a couple extra stops, and you're not loosing much by applying NR since it's already more compressed shadows anyways. DR rating is a highly personal thing and everyone will rate the parameters of their camera slightly different.

As far as a speedbooster, the first versions were not as good as the ULTRA, and a lot of people complained about CA and other visual artifacts. I personally love the speedbooster ULTRA, since it really helps me get more light into the sensor and slightly wider FOV.

I usually only shoot RAW onto the O7Q, which is actually very clean signal. But even the 12bit RAW is not as flexible as one might expect. You really still need to mind the white balance and exposure. I find this can just barely handle an ACES workflow, but still doable. Also does well with CST since it is just robust enough to handle the transforms.

When I do shoot ProRes 422HQ on the O7Q, the noise is much more noticeable since it bypasses any noise reduction. I will usually ETTR when shooting ProRes, so as to back off of the noise floor as much as possible. This codec can be worked into an ACES workflow, but I don't recommend it. Color Space Transforms are also doable, doesn't leave a lot of room to play with. It can handle some custom LUTs or FilmConvert type of workflows, just enough room to get creative with color.

When shooting internally, I usually shoot a modified HG4 with raised blacks, sharpness all the way down, contrast and saturation down just a bit and try to stay around 500 to 1000 ISO. The 8bit avchd codec when in FX mode is 21mbps (or thereabouts) and not very robust. I prefer this custom HG4 over shooting Slog-2, since I want to push this file as little as possible in post. This will already be in rec709, so all you have to do is make the little creative changes to make the footage yours. I also expose this a little to the right, just to keep cleaner shadows, but as you may not want to get anything that is color sensitive like skintones to get too much past 80IRE since it will start getting compressed. But I haven't shot internal on the FS700 in a while, though.

 

[SJX]

Never had a problem with CA with my speed booster. I shoot with it 100% of the time so all the videos I've posted have been shot with it. It's possible you would get some CA using cheaper lenses but if you're using decent glass it shouldn't be an issue. As for the dynamic range, we could analyse the tiny differences until the cows come home but by eye to me it looks better than a dslr, about the same amount as an FS7 or recent canon C series camera. With my eyes I only notice more dynamic range in images from an Alexa or RED. If that's what I see, it's incredibly unlikely my clients will see any different.

Thanks. Ok but you say FS700 is 14 stops and also say Alexa has more dynamic range. Alexa has 14 stops. So if you say FS700 has less than Alexa, FS700 can't have 14 stops. Or I misunderstand you?
About speed booster maybe is cheap lens then. Is Sigma Arts considered cheap lens?

 

[SJX]

View attachment 131629

This is a quick little DR test / mapping of the FS700 on Slog-2 (2000 ISO). The pictures of the monitor were taken with an iphone, so rely more on the false color and the parade. Each chip is a .6ND, so each chip represents a 2 stop step. I generally rate the FS700 as a 10-stop camera before you start hitting the noise floor hard. But since Slog-2 compresses the lower pat of the curve more, you can apply noise reduction to clean up the noise floor to gain a couple extra stops, and you're not loosing much by applying NR since it's already more compressed shadows anyways. DR rating is a highly personal thing and everyone will rate the parameters of their camera slightly different..

Hi Abreu-Canedo. Thanks for answer. I asked you a question about your FS700 in another thread but I guess you didn't see it there. So this DR chart is for LOG? Would RAW be more DR? I would hope FS700 is better than 10 stops. I think AF100 was 10 stops and that was bad. I think was Adam Wilt who gave FS700 14 stops or saw 14 stops on chart. But not sure it was 14 usable stops. But I hope is more than 10 usable stops. I want FS700 plus recorder for second camera. First I was thinking A7 or A7S with recorder. I like the idea of having full frame camera. But that is 8bit 4k only. So now I'm thinking FS700 with speed booster and raw recorder. But 10 stops is not appealing.

[As far as a speedbooster, the first versions were not as good as the ULTRA, and a lot of people complained about CA and other visual artifacts. I personally love the speedbooster ULTRA, since it really helps me get more light into the sensor and slightly wider FOV. .

Ok. So maybe first speed booster were bad and it must be ultra. I guess this also takes out cheaper chinese versions?

[I usually only shoot RAW onto the O7Q, which is actually very clean signal. But even the 12bit RAW is not as flexible as one might expect. You really still need to mind the white balance and exposure. I find this can just barely handle an ACES workflow, but still doable. Also does well with CST since it is just robust enough to handle the transforms..

I remember people complaining about FS7 RAW and I think problem was 12 bit limitation for RAW. I guess is same then for FS700 RAW?

[When I do shoot ProRes 422HQ on the O7Q, the noise is much more noticeable since it bypasses any noise reduction. I will usually ETTR when shooting ProRes, so as to back off of the noise floor as much as possible. This codec can be worked into an ACES workflow, but I don't recommend it. Color Space Transforms are also doable, doesn't leave a lot of room to play with. It can handle some custom LUTs or FilmConvert type of workflows, just enough room to get creative with color..

When shooting internally, I usually shoot a modified HG4 with raised blacks, sharpness all the way down, contrast and saturation down just a bit and try to stay around 500 to 1000 ISO. The 8bit avchd codec when in FX mode is 21mbps (or thereabouts) and not very robust. I prefer this custom HG4 over shooting Slog-2, since I want to push this file as little as possible in post. This will already be in rec709, so all you have to do is make the little creative changes to make the footage yours. I also expose this a little to the right, just to keep cleaner shadows, but as you may not want to get anything that is color sensitive like skintones to get too much past 80IRE since it will start getting compressed. But I haven't shot internal on the FS700 in a while, though.

What is highest ISO you think is clean with FS700? Like I saw test on YT and tester said with EVA1, ursa mini pro and FS5 5000ISO is still clean to use.

 

[SJX]

Hi SJX,

Regarding noise - there is some. About the same amount as an FS7 and a little less than an FS5.

In your personal opinion what is highest ISO you say is clean enough to shoot?

 

[abreu-canedo]

There is no linear RAW with FS700. It's a bit tricky, but the RAW bakes in Slog2 and color temperature.

You can check out the image in my last post and see that there are 5 identifiable notches on the wfm, but there is more data below that. like I said, I personally rate the camera as 10 stops, but there is more data below the noise floor...as you can see on the image I posted. In my personal opinion, 12 stops is about the most is say the Camera is capable of, but it all depends on how much compression and noise you can deal with.

But ultimately, if you are using it with the F35, you are not really going to need much more than 10/12 stops.

Slog2 minimum ISO you can use is 2000. Camera doesn't let you go below that. As far as the highest ISO, That is also relative and personal. I've used 3200 ISO successfully when recording internally. But the higher the ISO, the lower the dynamic range...at least that is my personal approach. Boosting ISO increases noise, so I try to get farther away from the noise floor...minimizing the amount of stops captured. But honestly, I mostly shoot RAW and I shoot night scenes at 2000 ISO. Fast lenses, speedboosters and light are my go-to techniques for exposure, so I keep ISO at 2000

 

[SJX]

There is no linear RAW with FS700. It's a bit tricky, but the RAW bakes in Slog2 and color temperature.

So this is good thing right? Linear need more bits than log. So 12 bit for log is better than 12 bit for linear. FS7 RAW is linear then? This is probably the problem.

You can check out the image in my last post and see that there are 5 identifiable notches on the wfm, but there is more data below that.

Yes I see in your chart show 10 stops. But how Adam Wilt got 14 stops then?

like I said, I personally rate the camera as 10 stops, but there is more data below the noise floor...as you can see on the image I posted. In my personal opinion, 12 stops is about the most is say the Camera is capable of, but it all depends on how much compression and noise you can deal with.

But ultimately, if you are using it with the F35, you are not really going to need much more than 10/12 stops.

F35 is 12+ stops minimum. Sony has shown tests. But macgregor rates it at 14 stops. He is experienced DP. He showed chart with 14 stops too. But 12+ for sure. Only 10, never.

Slog2 minimum ISO you can use is 2000. Camera doesn't let you go below that. As far as the highest ISO, That is also relative and personal. I've used 3200 ISO successfully when recording internally. But the higher the ISO, the lower the dynamic range...at least that is my personal approach. Boosting ISO increases noise, so I try to get farther away from the noise floor...minimizing the amount of stops captured. But honestly, I mostly shoot RAW and I shoot night scenes at 2000 ISO. Fast lenses, speedboosters and light are my go-to techniques for exposure, so I keep ISO at 2000

To be honest ISO2000 is enough for me. I was just curious. ISO2000 with speed booster is also like ISO 4000. More than enough. By the way FS700 shoot also Slog or only Slog2?

 

[Guest]

F35 is 12+ stops minimum. Sony has shown tests. But macgregor rates it at 14 stops. He is experienced DP. He showed chart with 14 stops too. But 12+ for sure. Only 10, never.

F35 could get 14stop latitude when exposed for iso2000, though, if I remember correctly? At least the highlights don't fall apart when it goes into clipping. things stay pretty stable. so even if it is less, it feels better than many 14stops DR cameras out there.

 

[IronFilm]

Now's a great time to do it as they're so cheap on eBay....

$1.5K is still a good size chunk of change (that then gets almost doubled when you add on the recorder cost) when I'm no longer focus on camera work, and am a professional sound recordist who just plays around with cameras on the side as a bit of a hobby ish now.

 

[IronFilm]

Hi KrocanX, I'm looking at finally replacing my FS700/Odyssey7Q with the Kinefinity Mavo LF. It does everything the FS700 does but MUCH smaller and lighter with no need for an external recorder. Better dynamic range, full frame , better more accurate colours + 6k upto 50fps. Seems like the perfect upgrade to an FS700+recorder.

That would be one of my dream cameras as well!

But we don't even know the price of the Kinefinity Mavo LF yet.

And even the Kinefinity Terra 4K is too expensive for me :-/

But there is one thing that I really dont like on fs700+recorder. It is not huge or heavy, itis just stupid. My work is 90% handheld and I often feel like I am working out not shootng).

If Atomos was to release an "Atomos Samurai V" (like their small 5" Ninja V, but SDI instead of HDMI, and with its low low price even brand new) then that would strongly sway me towards considering the FS700 seriously.

I'm currently set up with an Atomos Samurai Blade with my Sony PMW-F3.

 

[SJX]

F35 could get 14stop latitude when exposed for iso2000, though, if I remember correctly? At least the highlights don't fall apart when it goes into clipping. things stay pretty stable. so even if it is less, it feels better than many 14stops DR cameras out there.

Yes high lights are great with F35. This is what make me worry about high lights with FS700. I'm spoiled by F35.

 

[fatman]

did you make this decision as in 100% ?

I think it sounds great on paper, but my reservations would be that it's not a designer with tremendous amount of history (from what I can see breifly looking) and I can't tell if it's robust and built to last or not. Things like heat/cold durabillity for the long-term...

 

[KrocanX]

If Atomos was to release an "Atomos Samurai V" (like their small 5" Ninja V, but SDI instead of HDMI, and with its low low price even brand new) then that would strongly sway me towards considering the FS700 seriously.

That would be great! And also if Adobe would start to support ProresRAW.

 

[SJX]

Did chat end because I didn't take info at face value and gave counter arguments? Lets not be shy and continue everybody.

 

[filmguy123]

Did chat end because I didn't take info at face value and gave counter arguments? Lets not be shy and continue everybody.

DR arguments are pretty old... the one thing that is a fact is that DR ratings are inherently subjective and very hard to pin down... they're about as reliable as claimed battery life ratings, and about as divergent in differing figures in differing scenarios. They'll get you in the ballpark.

 

[SJX]

DR arguments are pretty old... the one thing that is a fact is that DR ratings are inherently subjective and very hard to pin down... they're about as reliable as claimed battery life ratings, and about as divergent in differing figures in differing scenarios. They'll get you in the ballpark.

I know. But if you say FS700 doesn't have as much DR as alexa and also say FS700 has 14 stops something is wrong don't you think? Alexa is proven to have 14 stops. I also don't talk only about DR. There are other points I make without replies.

 

[Sttratos]

Regarding noise - there is some. About the same amount as an FS7 and a little less than an FS5. Nothing too much though as long as you expose properly. Dynamic range is 14 stops. It's a good amount and you're really not going to notice an improvement until you compare it to a RED or Alexa.

Sorry but the FS700 does not have 14 stops. To be honest I can't say the FS7 has either. I have a FS700 for my lower end shoots and an Alexa for features and higher end things. The Alexa is a true 14 stops camera. Shooting Alexa and FS700 side by side is a non contest. The FS700 clearly has less dynamic range. I would say probably 12 stops. I don't think it's only 10 stops as implied somewhere else in the thread either. 12 feels about right.

 

[Sttratos]

DR arguments are pretty old... the one thing that is a fact is that DR ratings are inherently subjective and very hard to pin down... they're about as reliable as claimed battery life ratings, and about as divergent in differing figures in differing scenarios. They'll get you in the ballpark.

I think it's all about benchmarks. Manufacturers these days will plain lie just to sell you something. But when you take an accepted dynamic range standard as the benchmark it becomes easier to judge. The Alexa is universally accepted as a 14 stops camera. If a camera has more dynamic range than an Alexa then it could claim to have 15 stops for example. If it has less than an Alexa it can't claim to have 14 stops. Most cameras claiming 14 stops don't have as good dynamic range as the Alexa. Which means manufacturers are lying. The FS7 for example is supposed to be a 14 stops camera. But shoot it side by side with the Alexa and you will see it's not. So it's not that subjective when you have a benchmark.

 

[Sttratos]

I know. But if you say FS700 doesn't have as much DR as alexa and also say FS700 has 14 stops something is wrong don't you think? Alexa is proven to have 14 stops.

Yes exactly.

 

[IronFilm]

I think it's all about benchmarks. Manufacturers these days will plain lie just to sell you something. But when you take an accepted dynamic range standard as the benchmark it becomes easier to judge. The Alexa is universally accepted as a 14 stops camera. If a camera has more dynamic range than an Alexa then it could claim to have 15 stops for example. If it has less than an Alexa it can't claim to have 14 stops. Most cameras claiming 14 stops don't have as good dynamic range as the Alexa. Which means manufacturers are lying. The FS7 for example is supposed to be a 14 stops camera. But shoot it side by side with the Alexa and you will see it's not. So it's not that subjective when you have a benchmark.

Or it could be said Arri are understating the Alexa