C200: More specs on Panasonic EVA1 released

F

fhammond

Well-known member
http://www.newsshooter.com/2017/08/...ded-final-specification-and-pricing-annouced/

Pretty interesting, I thought. (And, since several people here are interested in the C200, I didn't think it was too off-topic, since the EVA1 is clearly going head-to-head with Canon.)

The main things I noticed are:
* Same price as the C200
* Limited autofocus ability
* Raw support coming (but not onboard)
* 4K 60 fps is limited to 8 bit 4:2:0
* 240 fps in a crop mode
* 4K 10 bit 4:2:2 at launch with 150 Mbps LongGOP compression
* 4K 10 bit 4:2:2 at 400 Mbps coming in a firmware update
* Higher resolution out on the SDI than the C200 (full DCI vs. HD)
* Q3 2017 ship date

All the specs are here: ftp://ftp.panasonic.com/provideo/aueva1/AU-EVA1_PRE4P_HIGH.pdf

Looks nice but definitely nothing that would rethink my decision to get a C200.
 
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fhammond said:
http://www.newsshooter.com/2017/08/...ded-final-specification-and-pricing-annouced/

Pretty interesting, I thought. (And, since several people here are interested in the C200, I didn't think it was too off-topic, since the EVA1 is clearly going head-to-head with Canon.)

The main things I noticed are:
* Same price as the C200
* Limited autofocus ability
* Raw support coming (but not onboard)
* 240 fps in a crop mode
* 4K 10 bit 4:2:2 at launch with 150 Mbps LongGOP compression
* 4K 10 bit 4:2:2 at 400 Mbps coming in a firmware update
* Higher resolution out on the SDI than the C200 (full DCI vs. HD)
* Q3 2017 ship date

Looks nice but definitely nothing that would rethink my decision to get a C200.
Click to expand...

Yeah I'm keeping my C200 pre-order. I think it really comes down to whether or not you prioritize internal RAW or internal 10-bit 422 to a codec. Thing is Canon could have offered both and undercut the EVA1 and sold a LOT more C200s, but at the possible expense of selling C300-IIs. I guess Canon doesn't want to make a perfect camera; they want to make several cameras that fill different needs and sell to different segments.

As far as EVA1 vs C200, I posted my thoughts on that post:

Seems like it's a head to head between Canon and Panasonic. I'm sure you will be able to create great imagery with both, so for me it come down to features.

Panasonic has:

-10-bit 422 codec recording. For folks that need to meet broadcast specs this is huge; media costs next to nothing and a lot of folks will already have media laying around. For a lot of people this alone will be the deciding factor.
-5.7k downscaled image. No footage yet, but it may yield a sharper image.
-Removable IR filter. I'm actually not sure of the day to day use of this one.
-Timecode in.

Canon has:

-Internal RAW recording up to 60p. For indie narrative filmmakers this is huge and for some this will be the deciding factor.
-Best in class continuous tracking autofocus.
-Built in EVF. If you want to add one to the Panasonic, that'll make it the more expensive camera.
-Stronger ND filter options. 10 stops vs 6.

Looks like the two cameras, although very similar at a glance, are actually aimed at different shooter (with some overlap). If I were a documentarian, I'd probably lean towards the EVA because I'd almost never shoot RAW and would want to meet broadcast spec. I'm buying to shoot narrative, so the C200 seems to make more sense for me considering I'll be shooting RAW all the time. If I were an event shooter, the autofocus of the Canon would be hugely attractive (both seem light sensitive enough). It should also be noted that, with the exception of autofocus, both cameras can add the capabilities the other has; Panasonic will enable external RAW and you can add on an EVF, and Canon allows 10-bit 422 over HDMI and SDI. You can also add timecode to the Canon with a tentaclesync.

One thing's for sure: both cameras appear to be great, and it's an amazing time to buy a camera. I didn't even mention that Sony and Blackmagic both also have cameras that are in the same price range that have similar capabilities. I think we may be in a golden age for cinema cameras!
 
NorBro said:
Probably worth mentioning the dual native ISO system in that spec list.
Click to expand...

That and Panasonic saying downsampling from a 5.7K sensor will lead to a superior image quality. I left both out because until we can compare both cameras, I'm not certain it's really a distinguishing feature. The Vimeo video from Cloakroom Media showing the C200 at high ISO has led to me think that the C200's low light performance is, quality-wise, beyond what I need (in a good way).
 
TheDingo said:
Only for HD formats, 4K is limited to 8-bit.
Click to expand...

Right.

I think it emphasizes the point that the C200 will (I hope) be an amazing raw camera but only an ok (at launch) non-raw camera. If you're committed to a raw workflow and think, as I do, that raw will get easier and easier - and cheaper - to work with, then that's find; I'm happy for Canon not to focus on non-raw features of the C200. But if you don't think raw is the way to go, then the EVA1 becomes a more interesting choice.
 
High-ISO performance from both should definitely be great. But by the time we see some tests, Sony will be preparing boxes for their 8K cameras. :crybaby:
 
fhammond said:
But if you don't think raw is the way to go, then the EVA1 becomes a more interesting choice.
Click to expand...

Many cine cameras use external RAW recorders for high bit-rate RAW with a large storage capacity, so I don't see the EVA1 having any problems shooting RAW all day with an external recorder.

With the C200 you are going to have to allow for a DIT to dump CFAST 2.0 cards while you shoot, or be prepared to buy a lot of CFAST 2.0 cards.
 
TheDingo said:
Many cine cameras use external RAW recorders for high bit-rate RAW with a large storage capacity, so I don't see the EVA1 having any problems shooting RAW all day with an external recorder.

With the C200 you are going to have to allow for a DIT to dump CFAST 2.0 cards while you shoot, or be prepared to buy a lot of CFAST 2.0 cards.
Click to expand...

If the egodisk cards work out, that's $300/30 minutes of RAW. Getting 3 and rotating is my plan. An external RAW recorder costs $1,800 plus media and you have to have another device to power and carry. I'd likely go with either 256 or 512gb drives if I went the external route, so the capacities aren't all that dissimilar. Not seeing the cost or workflow advantages of the external tbh.

I've been shooting Blackmagic RAW and RED RAW internally for years with no DIT.
 
TheDingo said:
Many cine cameras use external RAW recorders for high bit-rate RAW with a large storage capacity, so I don't see the EVA1 having any problems shooting RAW all day with an external recorder.

With the C200 you are going to have to allow for a DIT to dump CFAST 2.0 cards while you shoot, or be prepared to buy a lot of CFAST 2.0 cards.
Click to expand...

I'd agree that there are no problems with using raw on the EVA1 (when support for it is released) but for what I'm doing, it's just more convenient to have on-board raw recording. I'm ok with buying more CFast cards and I can't see why I'd need a DIT. As long as the $290/256 GB EgoDisk cards work (and that's for sure an unknown), using them will be comparable in price to an external recorder and more convenient (again, for what I'm doing, where an external recorder will be a hassle).
 
Fahnon said:
If the egodisk cards work out, that's $300/30 minutes of RAW.
Click to expand...

That's a lot more reasonable than the Sandisk cards.

I mentioned the DIT if you have to dump while shooting. Yes you can do this yourself, but it's another ball to juggle while you are shooting.
 
fhammond said:
I'd agree that there are no problems with using raw on the EVA1 (when support for it is released) but for what I'm doing, it's just more convenient to have on-board raw recording. I'm ok with buying more CFast cards and I can't see why I'd need a DIT. As long as the $290/256 GB EgoDisk cards work (and that's for sure an unknown), using them will be comparable in price to an external recorder and more convenient (again, for what I'm doing, where an external recorder will be a hassle).
Click to expand...
Before people get there hope up for the EgoDisk: It's one thing to be able to record with them, another to record reliably with them.
I went from P2 to SanDisk all the way, never had a card failure.
I also would love to shoot lot's of RAWlite, but until CFast of better known brands come down in price, I'll shoot mp4 (which is OK with me).
 
Spartacus said:
Before people get there hope up for the EgoDisk: It's one thing to be able to record with them, another to record reliably with them.
I went from P2 to SanDisk all the way, never had a card failure.
I also would love to shoot lot's of RAWlite, but until CFast of better known brands come down in price, I'll shoot mp4 (which is OK with me).
Click to expand...

Agreed: I'm going to do lots of testing before I trust EgoDisk 'thought I wouldn't go as far as to say I wouldn't use Raw Light.
 
Kudos to the Japanese for thinking of ways to release two cameras at the same price point and completely different feature sets.
 
If you are using an external raw recorder, then it becomes bulky and the reason for the "compact" form factor of the EVA1 is negated. And remember, panasonic cheaped out by not giving the EVF on the premise that they wanted a compact camera and no one uses EVFs etc. Can someone add the cost of an Odyssey raw recorder along with license and battery and an EVF to the cost of the EVA-1?

So, if you are comparing the EVA1 with C200, then add the cost of an external recorder and an EVF. I shoot a lot from monitors, however, there are situations, where, I have to shoot with the EVF. So Panasonic lost me on that.

I believe in the old adage "A Bird in Hand is worth Two in the Bush". I buy camera based on my needs now and only if I can payoff the cost of the camera through my work now. I do understand the pressure from marketing to release electronics items before every feature is ready. However, filming is a business and I don't care about hype, even if it is from the Marketing arm of large corporates or their fan boys.

When will people use logic? I hear the low light of EVA-1 is very good because it has Dual ISO because the Dual ISO in Varicam series is supposed to be good. However, people don't say that the Dual ISO in EVA-1 (800 and 2500) is different from Varicam. There is no frame of reference of what that ISO 2500 means.

It is important for people to get their hands-on and then decide on the camera, rather than on press release and internet hype. It is highly possible that no single camera will tick mark all the boxes. So better to decide which ever camera makes more business sense to the person.

TheDingo said:
Many cine cameras use external RAW recorders for high bit-rate RAW with a large storage capacity, so I don't see the EVA1 having any problems shooting RAW all day with an external recorder.

With the C200 you are going to have to allow for a DIT to dump CFAST 2.0 cards while you shoot, or be prepared to buy a lot of CFAST 2.0 cards.
Click to expand...
 
If you add an external Raw recorder to the Panasonic you are getting Raw plus up to 10 bit 4k 60p, with Canon you should be using Raw (and all the added cost for reliable media)otherwise you're spending a lot of money for an 8 bit camera. 2 different cameras with different end users
 
ade4all said:
with Canon you should be using Raw (and all the added cost for reliable media)otherwise you're spending a lot of money for an 8 bit camera.
Click to expand...

It is like a big ship having life boats. A person who doesn't have money to fuel the big ship but has money for the small lifeboat gets pissed off with the big ship and brands the big ship as a small lifeboat. Same thing with C200 Raw and MP4 files.

If you can't buy the CFast cards then this camera is not meant for you. Guys need to understand this. Unfortunately, there are many who are purposefully branding the C200 as 8 bit camera. And this is when the C200 does 12bits 4K at 30p which the EVA-1 can't even dream off.

Marketing guys of companies will play their games. But I feel the users should be more discerning. Choose the tool which meets your needs.

I feel 4K has to be shot at high bit rate. If you want to future proof, then shoot it at high bit rate. 150 Mbps doesn't do justice to the 4K in my opinion. Well for certain situations even 60Mbps of GoPro is also fine. Nevertheless, even for documentaries, I am now considering 4K raw, so seriously evaluating. Will only buy after testing the C200 and only if I believe I can unleash the possibilities.

With its EF mount, I would have been glad to use the EVA-1. But without the EVF, the EVA-1 is simply dead for me. May be next iteration would be better.
 
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