Magic Lantern enables 14-bit RAW CinemaDNG on 5D

@dustylense. I'm going to simultaneously agree and disagree with you. At the same time.

I couldn't imagine anyone using RAW for a corporate video. For a commercial. Yes. For a short film. Yes. For a one-camera episodic narrative. Yes. For a feature film. Definitely. But something that needs fast turn around time like a wedding, an ENG news shot, sports... etc.. It just makes no sense. 10bit anything, need not even be 4:2:2 would work great in such situations.

But for quality when editing time is not an issue, when you can offload your flash card that night to large TB drives in prep for the shoot tomorrow and forget about the footage until the end of the job (or pass it off to an editor whose working as you're shooting) that is the real use of this camera. And it will be a HUGE use. There have been tons of films shot on the 5D that would have implemented a RAW workflow if it were at their disposal. Not niche at all.
 
Steve Kahn said:
Haha! Don't tempt my wrath!

(btw, I'm finding that iPad is a really consistent way to grade video for the net. They're just becoming ubiquitous and look great!)
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Agreed, and Retina displays (Macbook, external). It's a good baseline, to me.
 
dustylense said:
It's all fun and great news that ML has hacked the MK3 for RAW. We'll see how it develops.

BUT... RAW RAW RAW! Take Squigs example two posts up. Tell me Squig, the workflow for that clip, was it worth it? nothing against the clip, but I agree with Kholi in that it's super crushed and that was most likely your choice. But was the workflow worth it for the final product? Now start imagining a production? Make it an easy corporate shoot if you will. Is the workflow worth it?

It's nice to have the option for RAW out of the Mk3 for maybe a difficult shot here and there. But in Squigs example if someone had been standing next to you with a C100/300 and shot the same stuff while you shot the RAWmk3, I think the person shooting the C100/300 would have shot, edited, exported, and posted online the clip before you even got to the edit bay. And the image would have looked equal if not much better but would have far more resolution to say the least.

Again, not trying to crap on your parade Squig or single you out (just using that clip and subject as example).

See, the BMC has the advantage here with RAW shooting in terms of workflow. Put the RAWs in Resolve, export proxies, edit and create XML back to Resolve, grade and import back to NLE then export. For some things even that is not worth the workflow and the storage requirements.

It's great what ML has done and that is without a doubt. But unless you can externally record to a ninja or something for clients to review clips on set, using the MK3Raw will just be a novelty for now. Has anybody even tried testing recording out to external for this very purpose? Because until then, if you have a client on set using the MK3Raw will just be an issue for that very reason. Let's see how this develops. So far the only thing I've seen that is impressive is McGregors Timple. It looks real nice. But again, I think even the lowly 420 capture of the C100 could have done the same but with better resolution.

Honestly, most everything I've seen shot MK3Raw is interesting. But it's nothing that even the C100 couldn't do in terms of image. And yes, I have shot RAW. I had the BMC. I've been shooting RAW images since RAW was a format on still cameras and even before that with large format view camera backs.

ML 5d Raw is cool. I'd rather see a nice 10bit 422 Mpeg though. If you want RAW and RAW with an established workflow, buy a Scarlet or the BMC4K for anything that pays or is serious work for the check. Rent it if you have to. I guess it all boils down to how far ML takes this hack. Make it issue free and secure with the ability to record externally and it can be a valuable tool. But as it stands now, it's just a novelty or a specialty shot camera working with RAW.

EDIT: It seems playback in camera is now working sort of. As well as sound recording. That's two birds knocked down. Again, lets see what happens....
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Sometimes its about the form factor. I love the size and feel of the 5D3 in my hand. It is obviously the most used camera that I own. Now I wouldn't be shooting RAW all the time but its nice to be able to capture a single moment when needed in RAW quality when you are already out shooting stills. After all the camera is also a stills camera and can get into some places a larger camera can't go or where you would be hassled using a larger camera. Its always about using the right tool for the job at hand. I would love to own a bunch of cameras including a C100, C300, 1DX, 1DC and a F55.

And mind you I also own a RED but I find that for me the 5D is just easy to get out and shoot daily with and I don't need to add on like 10 gadgets just to get a shot, rails, mattebox, external audio, etc. Now if I had a high-end gig then yes I would go with a tried and tested workflow and shoot my RED.
 
Steve Kahn said:
@dustylense. I'm going to simultaneously agree and disagree with you. At the same time.

I couldn't imagine anyone using RAW for a corporate video. For a commercial. Yes. For a short film. Yes. For a one-camera episodic narrative. Yes. For a feature film. Definitely. But something that needs fast turn around time like a wedding, an ENG news shot, sports... etc.. It just makes no sense. 10bit anything, need not even be 4:2:2 would work great in such situations.

But for quality when editing time is not an issue, when you can offload your flash card that night to large TB drives in prep for the shoot tomorrow and forget about the footage until the end of the job (or pass it off to an editor whose working as you're shooting) that is the real use of this camera. And it will be a HUGE use. There have been tons of films shot on the 5D that would have implemented a RAW workflow if it were at their disposal. Not niche at all.
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And if you are shooting a commercial, why would you not rent a camera like the Alexa, Epic, F55 and do it right. Until the hack proves stable and without any issues, shooting RAW on a commercial with a hacked 5d is a pipe dream. Maybe making an Indie short will be an avenue.

I'm not against the hack. But the fact is that many people that have the MK3 do just that, shoot corporate, weddings, and web stuff. I'm using the small house shooter as an example. One the set of a $500,000 budget for commercial just rent the right tool. Now big hollywood might use the MK3Raw as a crash cam or mount it on the hood of a car as B and C cams. But first the hack has to work and work reliably. Until then, niche.
 
dustylense said:
And if you are shooting a commercial, why would you not rent a camera like the Alexa, Epic, F55 and do it right. Until the hack proves stable and without any issues, shooting RAW on a commercial with a hacked 5d is a pipe dream. Maybe making an Indie short will be an avenue.

I'm not against the hack. But the fact is that many people that have the MK3 do just that, shoot corporate, weddings, and web stuff. I'm using the small house shooter as an example. One the set of a $500,000 budget for commercial just rent the right tool. Now big hollywood might use the MK3Raw as a crash cam or mount it on the hood of a car as B and C cams. But first the hack has to work and work reliably. Until then, niche.
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There are a lot of commercials that aren't budgeted for even a measly 500k (think local, regional spots). There are tons of music videos that have micro budgets. But agreed. We're talking when we get a STABLE hack. Until then this is just experimental stuff. We're in the testing phase and it's even generous of you to call it niche at this point. It's not ready for use.
 
Steve Kahn said:
There are a lot of commercials that aren't budgeted for even a measly 500k (think local, regional spots). There are tons of music videos that have micro budgets. But agreed. We're talking when we get a STABLE hack. Until then this is just experimental stuff. We're in the testing phase and it's even generous of you to call it niche at this point. It's not ready for use.
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Of course. Let's see how it develops. It's cool but not yet the tool. still, ML rocks and I love what they are doing.
 
dustylense said:
It's all fun and great news that ML has hacked the MK3 for RAW. We'll see how it develops.

BUT... RAW RAW RAW! Take Squigs example two posts up. Tell me Squig, the workflow for that clip, was it worth it? nothing against the clip, but I agree with Kholi in that it's super crushed and that was most likely your choice. But was the workflow worth it for the final product? Now start imagining a production? Make it an easy corporate shoot if you will. Is the workflow worth it?

It's nice to have the option for RAW out of the Mk3 for maybe a difficult shot here and there. But in Squigs example if someone had been standing next to you with a C100/300 and shot the same stuff while you shot the RAWmk3, I think the person shooting the C100/300 would have shot, edited, exported, and posted online the clip before you even got to the edit bay. And the image would have looked equal if not much better but would have far more resolution to say the least.
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Compared to the results you get with H.264 the workflow was worth it. I spend about as much time stuffing around with H.264 in the grade and transcoding and it still looks like s#it. In this case I just applied a LUT in abobe camera RAW, transcoded to prores 4444 in AE, and edited in FCPX with a magic bullet and film convert grade in FCPX then on the compressor for an mp4 vimeo output. I've got an internal 480gb SSD so prores 4444 is just doable. On big project I'll use prores proxies and go back to AE for the final grade. The file handling is a bit tedious but it will get smoother with MJPEG and CinemaDNG options.

Sure a C100 /ninja would be easier and you'd get similar results but I can shoot 60p anamorphic with the 5D which is something I need. Don't judge that particular clip for sharpness or any of mine until I get a faster card and start shooting with the Leicas. I'm shooting with the Iscorama because my card will only do 720p and the Iscorama is a lot softer than a good prime. Plus that clip is graded pretty heavily which softens things a bit. There's no post sharpening but there is a bit of debayer sharpening. macgregors clip is good example of the available resolution but I don't know what res he shot at or what glass he used.

For corporate work the C100 is a no brainer BUT you might find clients start asking for RAW just like they used to (and still do) ask for the 5D. So good just charge them for the extra post time. I don't think the C100 would look much better, I think it would be really close and in the final grade the MK3 might have the edge. I'm sure plenty of people will post comparisons so lets not get into a speculative debate, I haven't shot with the C100 but I have graded a few clips.

If all goes well with the hack I'm going to shoot some narrative scenes over the coming weeks (with lighting!) so that's gonna be the true test.
 
Steve Kahn said:
But for quality when editing time is not an issue, when you can offload your flash card that night to large TB drives in prep for the shoot tomorrow and forget about the footage until the end of the job (or pass it off to an editor whose working as you're shooting) that is the real use of this camera. And it will be a HUGE use. There have been tons of films shot on the 5D that would have implemented a RAW workflow if it were at their disposal. Not niche at all.
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I think it's going to be the go to camera for low budget indie features along with the black magics to a lesser extent. I'm testing it for a feature now.
 
Kholi said:
Agreed, and Retina displays (Macbook, external). It's a good baseline, to me.
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Hmmm, I don't have a retina. I grade on a 24" samsung, movies look perfect on it. I'll check it out on my mates iPad for future reference. I would imagine it probably looks even more crushed.
 
squig said:
Hmmm, I don't have a retina. I grade on a 24" samsung, movies look perfect on it. I'll check it out on my mates iPad for future reference. I would imagine it probably looks even more crushed.
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I dunno, man. Your footage is just really crushed in general.
 
Tried the new build, there's some weird flickering going on, not sure if it's the camera or post yet.

 
For the most part I agree with Dusty, but that really is dependent upon how the ML project progresses. They are already way past what I thought was possible. For me, this will be a great tool in the box. I often only use the 5D for specialy shots and interviews so the added DR and detail would be most welcomed. Like everything nowdays it will have a time and place but this hack will hopefully allow me to own one SDOF camera and check off another box or two.
 
dustylense said:
I have 2 MK3's and the C100. Once a more stable hack build comes along, I will do some side by sides.
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dustylense, could you do a little test, couple of seconds, shooting kitchen table or anything, 5dmk3 raw and C100. Would appreciate that, I think many people would!
 
I'm pretty excited about this because I own the camera. If I didn't already own the camera I would probably just buy the BMCC PocketRaw.
 
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