Low-mid budget Run and Gun cameras in 2021? Sony Fs3?

Two things. Tonight I bought a C200 for around £3k ($4.2k) and I can tell you (im investigating moving mine) FS7 are worth absolutely nothing. If you want XLR ND 4k 60 FS7 is worth a checkout. With a booster and a bit of manual glass the FS7 is going to be 'the new F3' for low price 10bit Slog.

I think these cams get so cheap because the kids prefer somthing in the Bm pocket size class and dont properly value ND.
 
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“Fs7 are worth absolutely nothing” sounds like you are saying the cameras are worthless, which given the rest of the post, can appear contradictory. As if you are at once saying Fs7 is a worthless piece of crap...and you should consider getting an Fs7.
 
I think Morgan means the market value of the fs7 has plummeted - which it certainly has. I spoke to my rental shop who are selling there camera bodies for the Fx series and moving pretty much exclusively full frame. We don't have the second hand market saturation here, so while the fs7 is relatively cheap now, it's still 3x the price of the Panasonic s5 or s1.
 
junct said:
I think Morgan means the market value of the fs7 has plummeted - which it certainly has. I spoke to my rental shop who are selling there camera bodies for the Fx series and moving pretty much exclusively full frame. We don't have the second hand market saturation here, so while the fs7 is relatively cheap now, it's still 3x the price of the Panasonic s5 or s1.
Click to expand...

Yes, I understood what he meant. He meant “cost”. “Worth nothing”suggests no value, absent any worth. Worthless. Of no use. May as well make it a door-stop or boat anchor.

Don’t fight me on this. I am right about everything. Always. :smile:
 
Why not buy a Canon?

Also, did you not bear witness to Morgan's agonizing soul-searching that led him to the C200?
 
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My reasons would be that Canon cameras seem to have fallen out of favor in tv production. It has been years since an inquiring client requested one, I rarely see Canons in the field anymore. Sony, ARRI, and RED. Those are the players in my world and practically the only players.

So there is that, in addition to what I find to be terrible ergonomics of the “C” design what with all that weight up high.

I realize that the way some work the camera model doesn’t matter to clients and their clients are not the type of client to request or demand specific camera models.

Take it with a grain of salt, but to me Canon cameras are all but dead and over right now. Their run ended because of the Fs7 / Sony mirrorless. 5D is a thing of the past, replaced by a7s. I just don’t see Canon as the present, nevertheless the future. It wouldn’t surprise me in the least to hear Canon has given up the ghost and ceased to be a company.

Most of my clients would be disappointed to hear “C200” when asking what camera I own and would likely say “can you get a Sony Fs7 or FX9? Those are what we usually shoot with.” The mere answer of “C200” would potentially be a red-flag to clients and peg me as not being a serious Owner / Op. Many would be of the mind of “who the heck uses a C200?? That’s a YouTuber camera. Amateurs and semi-professionals. Not a serious camera.”

Even as a B-cam, why? Why, unless your primary is also a Canon. And I do not personally know of any Owner / Ops who still have a Canon as their primary because, well, everything above.
 
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Fun side story about dying camera companies (I’m not chiming on whether I think canon are dying or not).
I shot a short web piece for a very well known camera company, interviewing a well known user of their equipment. Said camera company requested I use their equipment, so I quoted them the hire cost, which they rejected as too expensive (it was more than my day rate and they wanted me to cover the hire with what I’d already quoted for me + my gear). I had assumed they’d offer to, you know, lend some of their gear for the shoot. They didn’t. Which was odd but fine.
The rep of x camera company (sales person for that area) came to the shoot, and kept making jibes about how weird it was that I refused to use their superior equipment and was using that “trashy Panasonic” stuff.
 
JPNola said:
Sorry if this is rude, but why buy a Canon now?
Click to expand...

Canon are clearly the best :) - I’ve been Sony for tha last decade .

The canon win? It started with 50mbs 422 c300 vs 35mbs 420 in the f3 - when clients demanded 50.

The fs7 caught up - not as good as canon but halfvthe price - so it “won”

Now I can afford a build in xlr c line that’s great.

Cheap lenses
Great af
Sdi and hdmi
Nd xlr
12bit

Time wil tell.
 
JPNola said:
My reasons would be that Canon cameras seem to have fallen out of favor in tv production. It has been years since an inquiring client requested one, I rarely see Canons in the field anymore. Sony, ARRI, and RED. Those are the players in my world and practically the only players.
Click to expand...

Ah, the old "I don't use those cameras so I assume nobody else does, either" argument. It's the same reason I'm shocked that RED is still in business and the iPhone is still being produced.

I mean - just on this forum, there are numerous regulars who use C500mk2, c300mk3, c200 for doc shooting. Coughlin shoots interviews for broadcast on either the amira or c300mk2, now c300mk3/c70.

I used to feel the same way about the C200. "Nobody I know wants it, it doesnt shoot 10-bit." But there was a whole world of people using it. So much so that the price on it has hardly budged since release, the used copies hold their value fairly well, and they haven't bothered to release an update yet.

The C300mk3 and C500mk2 both look like really nice cameras and have some advantages over their sony counterparts. I dont think the ergonomics are a clear win in either direction.

I have an FS7 and I'd probably trade it for an FX6 if anything. Out of curiosity, how do you think your clientele feels about the FX6? Or is it too early for them to have an opinion?
 
ahalpert said:
Ah, the old "I don't use those cameras so I assume nobody else does, either" argument. It's the same reason I'm shocked that RED is still in business and the iPhone is still being produced.
Click to expand...

I suppose I am guilty as charged. But in my defense ( and possibly my arrogance ), I am a full-time professional who does a LOT of shoots in a wide variety of areas of production. Too, my comment pertained to full-time Owner / Ops who do 2-person type jobs for hire. The Crews Control type of work. Maybe I should have made that clear.

It is only one market, but of the 8 Owner /Ops I know locally, none own a Canon camera any longer. All are Sony, ARRI, or RED. And like I said, I have clients request the Fs7 but it has been years since I got requests from clients for C300. These are clients from L.A. / NYC / London, so they do not reflect my local market only. For recent jobs I did for Netflix and Apple TV they said the Fs7 is what they most shoot on and wanted.

Features are only one market segment, but of the 54 films from 2020 Sundance in the link below, only one was shot on a Canon, all the others were either ARRI, RED, or Sony:

https://www.indiewire.com/2020/01/sundance-2020-cinematography-camera-lens-1202204356/


Canon is still strong in the world of still photography. A fact that makes my hyperbole about Canon going belly up a bit silly, among other reasons for it being silly. Maybe I am trolling more than I am aware. And I recognize that my dislike of the Canon C’s is extreme if not also irrational. Going from ENG cameras like the HDX900 to the Canon C300 I hated the C300. It was just so weirdly designed, Operator un-friendly, and infuriating to use compared to what I was coming from. When the Fs7 came out I was glad to see it was more like the cameras I was accustomed to. Operating the Fs7 I felt like it was designed by video people. Operating the C300 I felt like it was designed by still photography people who had no experience shooting video and didn’t even bother consulting with anyone who had.

Oh, and fyi, I cannot think of a single relative, friend, or co-worker of mine who does not have an iPhone. My Field Producers always seem to have iPhones. Can’t recall a field-prod having anything else, ever. Maybe I suffer from myopia there as well.

And alph, ck your inbox.
 
JPNola said:
Features are only one market segment, but of the 54 films from 2020 Sundance in the link below, only one was shot on a Canon, all the others were either ARRI, RED, or Sony:

https://www.indiewire.com/2020/01/sundance-2020-cinematography-camera-lens-1202204356/
Click to expand...

Looking down that list of BTS shots and descriptions gives me such shooting envy.

But I mean - there are a number of movies there shot on film. Maybe a similar number to the number shot on Venice? And I don't know any owner-ops who own or use a film camera....

There's only one Canon C500 movie, and only one movie that used the FS7 (which seems to have shot doc-style and also used an A7Sii).

So it seems sort of like Canon doesn't have a Venice equivalent? The Sony camera that gets used on that list is inevitably the Venice.

And the Alexa Mini seems much more popular than RED, although many of those films were shot on RED.

I could see a person preferring the body design of the FS7 to the C300mk2. But I don't feel like they're THAT different. Sort of like all these little mirrorless cameras - I could use any of them basically interchangeably even if they have minor design differences that could be bothersome in certain situations. But I get that you have a strong preference. I'd say that from what I've seen in NYC corporate/doc/interview work, the FS7 has been more popular but it's a toss-up. And I've met clients who were very anti-Sony and pro-Canon.

I've always owned an Android. Mostly just to prevent a total monopoly by Apple. Not that Google (or, I suppose, my current manufacturer is Samsung) isn't a huge company, too. But it seems crazy for everyone to buy the same phone from the same company. What could go wrong! And I don't think there's anything I can't do on my Android that an iPhone can do (except sign up for Clubhouse, apparently). But sure, almost everyone I know outside my family has an iPhone.
 
morgan_moore said:
Canon are clearly the best :) - I’ve been Sony for tha last decade .

The canon win? It started with 50mbs 422 c300 vs 35mbs 420 in the f3 - when clients demanded 50.

The fs7 caught up - not as good as canon but halfvthe price - so it “won”

Now I can afford a build in xlr c line that’s great.

Cheap lenses
Great af
Sdi and hdmi
Nd xlr
12bit

Time wil tell.
Click to expand...

I wanted a very similar list of features.
So I bought a Sony FX6.
 
alaskacameradude said:
I wanted a very similar list of features.
So I bought a Sony FX6.
Click to expand...

But you lost cheap lenses, lost internal 12 bit, took the handle off and lost XLR and there wasnt even a 3.5mm input for scratch. Then you tried to use your lenses on a smaller camera that lacked ND and found there was no space for a behind the lens ND.

You tested the ND and found odd polarisation artifacts*

Then you kicked the whole shooting match off a bridge.

Ive said before I tried my chums FS6/28-135 and it is one of the best doc packages Iver ever seen/felt. Its a bit pedestrian,at 28mm but its really really good.


*ok im speculating here.
 
JPNola said:
But in my defense ( and possibly my arrogance ),
Click to expand...

Good to chat :)

Im also a bit arrogant (and experienced). Honestly those Sundancers look like muppets to me. All that kit all those people. Hell did they never hear of a profit margin. Do they think film making is about making films? (Or about buying a house for the kids - and oddly giving actors space to perform) You or I could have shot those films with a 20% hit on look and a 1/4 of budget in camera department (keep the other 3/4 dont discount). We could have paid for some holidays and a car. You can tell the two completent DPs as they have a black sheet to get under to see the monitor - the others are mainly lining up for eye strain and wonky necks and bad backs as they dont know how to handle a camera. Especially those pimped arris. You woud only spec a camera like that (heavy) if you had (and had always had) an unpaid intern/mule to carry it. Those cameras are not even legal according to uk manual handling law. Something that heavy on a building site and the police would be called.

Alipert dont have any jealousy your A7s probably looks as good.

If I were shooting anything with a proper budget I would fire the DP* if he/she didnt get a couple of canons (500/300) on set at least to do 200mm walk towards shots. Sure have an Arri too but you need a couple of Canons to keep it sharp and on schedule.

You might not be wrong about producers wanting FS7.. here is my arrogance.. most producers were not shooting (or born) in the 1980s, they have no idea of a good camera because they have not served the time yet, they just pick cr_ap based on a couple of YT vids they watched. Anyway Ive got an FS7 and because its only worth $1500 Ill probably keep it... so if a producer wants FS7 FS7 they will have

- hey my new** Canon glass will fit the FS7.. and the Arri and the Red and the FX9 and the FX6, and the BMCs and the EVA1 and lots of MFT cameras. The Sony glass fits nothing. The pl glass will be worth nothing once AF catches on.




*OK 35T2 only arthouse dont need help
** actuallly super cheap used
 
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Well Ultraprime used prices have come down a bit but not enough for me to be able to indulge my long-standing lust to own them.

A big drop won’t take place until all the RED & ARRI folks go AF cameras.

Narrative is slow to adopt because of focus changes that happen on narrative cues. For instance, the camera racks focus from actor to car keys in foreground when the actors finishes asking “where are my keys??”. Or camera racks from car explosion in the distance to maniacal face of actor at close distance and does so two beats after the car explodes. AF cannot yet serve where focus is used to tell a story.
 
Of course - Im writing with a big pich of salt :)

The canons do have a MF feature buried in the menu for the keys shot - in fact I think there is a on body/lens switch.

Canon will take all my manual nikkors.. but not my FD glass which is going lupo on the price front since the 'its the same as K35' video.

And the rosette on the side of the C200 matches the rosette FS7 so that will work for holding my focus motor without a full rig. Tidy.
 
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morgan_moore said:
But you lost cheap lenses, lost internal 12 bit, took the handle off and lost XLR and there wasnt even a 3.5mm input for scratch. Then you tried to use your lenses on a smaller camera that lacked ND and found there was no space for a behind the lens ND.

You tested the ND and found odd polarisation artifacts*

Then you kicked the whole shooting match off a bridge.

Ive said before I tried my chums FS6/28-135 and it is one of the best doc packages Iver ever seen/felt. Its a bit pedestrian,at 28mm but its really really good.


*ok im speculating here.
Click to expand...

Cheap lenses? I got a Tamron 28-75 F2.8 for
$650. A Tamron 17-28 F2.8 is $800ish and a Tamron
70-180 F2.8 is $900. Sigma Emount lenses are also
‘fairly’ inexpensive. Not *really*inexpensive but any
equivalent Canon lenses (which give you autofocus on
the C200) will cost a similar amount. All the Tamron and
Sigma native Emount glass give fantastic autofocus
on the FX6. So I dunno what do you consider cheap?
If you want really cheap you can use old FD lenses on
the FX6 but I was assuming lenses which have autofocus.
So tell me, what sort of ‘cheap’ lenses do you use on the
C200 and what is their cost? You may also say ‘but my
EF lenses can be used on a Canon or a Sony and your
Sony lenses can only be used on a Sony.’ Which is kind
of true but Canon lenses being used on a Sony is pretty
pointless. No autofocus
so you might as well use cheaper old lenses if you
are just going manual. And the autofocus on Sony
Emount lenses on the new crop of Sony’s (FX3, FX6
and A7siii) is every bit as good as Canon’s dual pixel...
if not better. No Sony shooter is going to want to
use Canon lenses on a Sony camera any longer.
The Metabones EF to Emount adapter days will
be coming to an end in my opinion...not right
away but all the Sony shooters I know are getting
rid of any EF mount glass they have in favor of
native Emount glass. Non native EF mount glass
just can’t do what Emount will do on the Sony
cameras and has lost much of its attractiveness
for ops using the new Sony cameras.
As for internal 12 bit....yeah I don’t have that. But
I do have a 4.2.2 10 bit internal instead of only
Raw or 8 bit internal. I’d rather have the 10bit as
it hits the ‘sweet spot’ of smaller storage space with
good post flexibility. If I need it, it outputs 16bit
raw....which the $500 5 inch NinjaV can record as
12 bit raw.

I don’t take the handle off. It’s light enough to
use on a one handed gimbal with the handle ON.
If I did need to remove the handle for some reason,
it would be simple to synch to an external recorder
either using the synch mic or tentacle synch....cause
you don’t need a 3.5mm jack for synch sound when
you can literally use the timecode in/out. Side note,
I have never once used a 3.5mm audio jack for
actual pro video work, so maybe I’m just missing
something here which most people use, I really
dunno. But of all the complaints about the FX6,
this is the one I understand the least. I have my own
pet peeves.....
(Lack of object tracking autofocus like the A7siii
has and the need to fill most of the frame with a
white card when white balancing instead of having
the tiny box you move until the little square is over
the white card also like the A7siii) but the audio on
the handle is not one of them.

Using my lens on a smaller camera and not having
space behind the lens for ND? I’m lost. Is this
something EF lenses do? I’ve never used a behind
the lens ND.

And no, the built in ND has no odd polarization
artifacts. It’s not two polarizers like a variable ND
on the front of a lens. I have read that it can have
some strange issues if you add filters on the front
of a lens and combine them with the internal ND.
Of course I have also read that the C200 has an odd
greenish tint that can result with strong internal ND
applied as well.....

I couldn’t deal with only having huge space eating
raw files or ‘thin’ 8 bit files with nothing in between.
Only having crude 1 or 2 stop ND steps seems impossibly
limiting after using the awesome variable ND. Not
to mention having a top handle attached with only
one screw!? No SDI!? No ability to view the LUT ‘in
camera’ so you can view what the shot will look like
after the LUT is applied right in your camera monitor??
Those issues would cause me to launch the C200 off the
bridge long before I did so to the FX6.

* All the above is just my opinion
and so probably only worth $.01 or
thereabouts.
 
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JPNola said:
And I recognize that my dislike of the Canon C’s is extreme if not also irrational. Going from ENG cameras like the HDX900 to the Canon C300 I hated the C300. It was just so weirdly designed, Operator un-friendly, and infuriating to use compared to what I was coming from. When the Fs7 came out I was glad to see it was more like the cameras I was accustomed to. Operating the Fs7 I felt like it was designed by video people. Operating the C300 I felt like it was designed by still photography people who had no experience shooting video and didn’t even bother consulting with anyone who had.
Click to expand...

You may note above I said 'inbuild XLR canon' - I completely agree that the earlier gen C canons that has some wierd crap with thier monitor an XLRs poked high in the air. Pure insanity - as you said such horrors never would have been designed by anyone who has been near shooting video for a living.

Its such a shame as the C300ii is very good codeccy and super cheap. The 500i is also cheap but both are affliceted with the christmas tree arrangement of xlrs. The C200 is the first inbuild XLR canon C camera.

I think the (c200 and) current Canons will work stripped down on the shoulder with a Vmount counter wieght and EVF or in a sort of stripped hasselbad style. The latter is not a traditional video method but can work for short takes and when a compact rig is needed say when shooting in a car or a crowded market. The second build also pops on a gimbal.

As with my FS7 I build it to move fast between big shoulder rig and small gutcam build.
FS7 'traditional' https://www.instagram.com/p/B0A3TPwAwDm/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link
FS7 Gut Cam https://www.instagram.com/p/Bsvmq4vF967/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link
And the 3rd configuration is Movi https://www.instagram.com/p/BxuMTMtlo5h/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

Interesting that in 2 of those builds Im using the 18-200 'horror story' lens
 
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