Low-mid budget Run and Gun cameras in 2021? Sony Fs3?

junct

junct

Active member
I've been slowly wanting to replace my Gh4, but had a hard time justifying it despite it's age, because it generally is good enough for anything I get paid to shoot. However, the screen died seconds before I rolled on an interview yesterday (right when a client skyping in wanted to check how I'd dressed and framed the room), which isn't a total catastrophic failure - but even if I used with a monitor, I'd be sinking money into something that's getting pretty old now.

I've also been envious of DoP friends who have "proper" video bodies (the Sony Fs6 a friend recently acquired seems pretty perfect for my kind of work). The relative ergonomics of those bodies, and the quality of some features such as Autofocus and Auto ND (which weren't good enough when I was last buying a camera 5 years ago) would help my work a lot.

For some context the work I do falls into a couple of categories:

  1. Paid videography work. This tends to be corporate interview type things with a bit of b-roll. Simple, but often I end up with no more than 15 minutes to mic someone, light them and get rolling. Then i'm usually under time pressure to get some relevant b-roll. I am winding this down a bit, as my personal career focus moves away from videography (and out of moving image)
  2. Small crew documentary work. This is my main focus. Crews are 1-3 people, partially as a logistics and financial concern, but also significantly for the intimacy and relationships it allows us to form with subjects. So far this tends to be quite reactive and occasionally fast paced work. I'm moving away from doing more formal sit down interviews, and exploring ways of working subjects to find more natural and casual conversational tones. That means being mobile with camera, usually no lighting. I do not expect to make a profit on these projects. I am also a director first, and often I work with someone else who is focussing closer on a camera (and my camera is either a b-cam, where my main focus is engaging with the subject, and usually my camera is hanging on a wider shot for some editing coverage).
  3. Narrative work. I'm not going to shoot my own narrative projects, I'm not a DoP - I'll usually work with someone else. I try to have budget available to hire camera for them/from them.

So, a camera I own doesn't need to be a top end camera, because anything I'm doing that justifies that should have the budget the hire something appropriate and I'm slowly moving away from video and film being my primary income so I can't really justify owning a $10,000 camera.

Things I value:
  1. Ergonomic operation. This makes me lean more toward conventional video cam bodies than slr/photography/pocket cam bodies. Though the Sony Fs3 looks like a clever "pocket" cam design that lends itself to being built up more ergonomically by adding attachment points without the need for a cage + the XLRinput handle looks very clever. Generally anything well considered for on-the-fly use.
  2. Decent XLR inputs. I've been running sync sound for years, but often enough I'm working solo and a simpler set up, even with some hypotethical losses in technical quality, would likely improve the quality of my audio and picture overall. Two inputs is probably the minimum.
  3. Good low light performance - probably the thing I struggled with most with the Gh4.
  4. Ease of use handheld. Whether through top handle, or being designed to get up on the shoulder without a big shoulder rig, and/or with good body and lens stabilisation, I'm going to be doing more and more work on-the-go. If I can do that without needing a gimble or a rig for most of it, that's great - another reason photography and pocket cam bodies are difficult here is they quickly get unbalanced as things get attached to them in the classic frankenrig fashion.
  5. Perhaps decent auto focus. I've never shot with autofocus personally, because I've never been using a cameras I could trust with it. But I was very impressed with a friends Fs6 when we were shooting a lot of movement in changeable light conditions, which he managed mostly with the autofocus.
  6. 4k is plenty. I love shooting 4k on the Gh4 in these scenarios for the reframing options it gives me (particularly in 1 camera interviews). 4k with high frame rate options would be a welcome upgrade - provided there's no hang ups (such as the old Sony A6000 rolling shutter)
  7. Full frame. I've been an avid user of m43 for a long time, and a proponent of what it's let us do with adapting lenses etc. But as full frame sensors have become more accessible, there seems less and less reason not to use one.


So, as strongly indicated, I think I'm probably more interested in going for a more traditional video camera route, where the lesser need to franken-rig it will give me a better balanced and more ergonomic camera operating experience. But I see options like the Sony Fs3 are quite considered in making themselves a bit more ergonomic as "pocket" cams by essentially turning the camera body into a cage, things like the XLR top handle, etc..

The other significant upside to the pocket cam route is that if built up minimally, it doesn't look too much like a "pro video camera" - in the past, using my Gh4 subtly has allowed me to shoot video and get footage I wouldn't have been able to had as I could blend in as a tourist taking photos.

I'm very out of touch with current state-of-the-market camera bodies - which is how I've avoided the urge to upgrade for the past few years :D But I'm now looking for guidance. I chose the documentary sub-forum as I figure you guys have the most similar needs to me (and I'm currently browsing the 2021 set up thread for ideas).

The Fs3 would be a camera at the very top of my budget, but does meet a lot of the needs I have, and is possibly even more camera than I need (with the tradeoffs of still being a pocket cam). I don't mind going second hand on something previous generation, either.
 
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Also worth noting, I have a friend who works for Panasonic and a friend who works for Fujifilm, so I have access to their staff discounts. Last time I checked with the Panasonic friend though, their discount was pretty poor on cameras as apparently the mark up is pretty low. The price he could get was the same as a local shop in town during a boxing day sale.
 
I can't comment on the FX3 as I've never used it, but I do own (and love) my FX6.

That said, I'd suggest looking into a used Fs5, which will be at the very low end of your budget, even with an external recorder. It's a great camera that ticks many (if not all) of your boxes. It doesn't have the recognition of the FS7 but if you're not being hired for bringing specific cameras that won't matter as much.

In my view the ergonomics of the Fs5 are great; it has XLR inputs that capture decent audio; shoots 4K (no high frame rates, but it will do them externally to a Shogun Inferno or 7); has *okay* autofocus in Face Detect mode; provides full frame equivalent when using a speedbooster while still offering the flexibility of TONS of amazing S35 lenses; has the amazing variable ND; and has excellent battery life.

The low light is not great, but for doc-style work I found it perfectly adequate (just not in slog2/3—using one of the cinegammas).

It has its limitations—like an absolutely terrible LCD—but overall it's a solid performer that can produce excellent images. And when used with the RAW upgrade and an external recorder its capabilities are expanded significantly.

The dealbreaker (for me) with the FX3 is the lack of internal ND. Also I'm not wild about the DSLR form factor, but that's personal preference.
 
This probably is not the reply you were looking for, but it might be best for you to rent different cameras and purchase based off that.

But that aside, yes, the fs5 ticks many of your boxes. Or maybe a Sony a7sII?

Did you give us a budget range to work with? We talking $2000 or $5000? ( apology if you said above )
 
Thanks for the thoughts there Drboffa and JPNola. The Fx6 is a gorgeous camera, and if I had the disposable income, would be pretty up there as a first choice. It's just really too much for me, and too much to justifiably spend on something that's not going to make enough income to make sense for me.

I have used an Fs5 a few years ago, and really loved it.

JPnola, your suggeston of renting is a sensible one. Camera rentals were I live are a little extortionate, but definitely makes sense to get my hands on something before buying (will also get in touch with friends in my networks who might be able to lend me things for some test work).

I'm closer to the $2000 range, realistically. The suggestions of the Sony Fx3 is really pushing the top end a bit.
 
Reigning in my new-camera-time excitement, the Fx3 is really pushing my budget a bit too much. Even the Fs5 sells second hand in New Zealand at quite a high price (close to $3000usd).

I wonder if I'm better served by an a7sII or a Gh5? I'd like to get away from the DSLR form factor, so are there any other cameras in that kind of price range (esp second hand) that are worth considering with a camcorder form factor?

Though the DSLR form factor does have advantages in documentary scenarios for being less "serious" looking.
 
Something has to give with your list and the price...unfortunately everything you're asking for really isn't possible for that money unless you're willing to make some compromises.

Maybe check out a used JVC LS300.

A very underrated camcorder body that has a S35 sensor with a MFT mount. Might not make much sense but once you dive into all of its features and possibilities like using MFT lenses (which many have IS) with the sensor crop, or being able to use a zoom rocker for zooming with S35 4K lenses for HD/2K, it's a cool camera that also has J-Log, dual-card recording, ND filters, possibly usable AF for your productions if your standards aren't too high for it, a pretty good included shotgun microphone for the XLRs on the handle, and a variety of switches and buttons traditional camcorders have.

I've seen them on eBay for $1000-$2000.

Or brand new: https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1096581-REG/jvc_gy_ls300_4kcam_handheld_s35mm.html
 
Yeah, it was really a wish list.

- I think colour science of most cameras in the gh5/a7sii range is "good enough" for me, but I would like better dynamic range than the Gh4.
- I'd like better low light performance, especially for those situations where lighting conditions are unpredictable.
- Full frame is not essential, but it generally is coupled by better low light performance.
- I'd like decent autofocus, but I've lived without it for a long time.
- I'd like an elegant way to get audio into camera.
- I'd like a camera with decent ergonomics, for quickly moving setups quickly and running handheld.

Thanks for the heads up on the JVC - hadn't even looked at their cameras. Looks like an interesting camera..
 
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It sounds like FF might be preferable so just to narrow down the choices, it must be known (if it's not) that they don't put full-frame sensors in camcorders, so your ergonomics are limited to photography cameras with random rare birds like the JVC LS300 with a S35 sensor.

There are no cinema cameras with full-frame sensors anywhere close to $3000. (The FX3 is more of a stills body camera and it seems like it's out anyway.)

With that said, the next best option is the Sony a7C (full-frame), which shares the a7SIII's color science, AF, and with a very fast lens will easily be fantastic in low-light up to around 6400.

Audio...if you use a third-party preamp with knobs that sits under the camera, you can have high-quality audio in a pretty simple set up. Only pain per usual is where to put the microphone and how to rig it.

Might not be elegant but you do not have any other choice with the other features taking priority.

___

People who use these kind of cameras want these kind of ergonomics because it's very delightful to program your dials to be able to change your ISO, aperture, shutter speed, even WB with quick turns rather than buttons or menu fiddling.

The DSLRs/mirrorless' will have to become your new ergonomics, or you'll have to raise the price 2x-3x for other options...or use a smaller sensor camcorder which will have a beautiful audio design but will be inferior with AF and low-light.
 
Yeah, I'm not married to full frame - just with more mirrorless and compact full frame options becoming accessible, it *feels* like a good thing to prioritise.

The Fx3 is interesting, for a compact video camera, the design looks quite considered with mounting points and screws directly on body, and the xlr handle is very neat.

Yeah, 3rd party preamp or even something like a mixpre-3 with camera would be a good system, but I have found balance starts to get bit a bit awkward as the camera gets taller.

I absolutely like physical controls over menu controls (part of a love for shooting on vintage photography primes comes from this), but you're right in that it comes with compromises.

The A7C wasn't really on my radar, as I'd seen it as more of a photography camera. But from a quick look, it does look quite similar at a better price and with better autofocus than the a7sIII
 
Similar AF, if not the same. (Both are great.)

But no 4K/60p or 10-bit. But it's a nice image with a lot of DR if you're conservative with the post handling.

Also has IS through gyro data/software.
 
NorBro said:
It sounds like FF might be preferable so just to narrow down the choices, it must be known (if it's not) that they don't put full-frame sensors in camcorders, so your ergonomics are limited to photography cameras with random rare birds like the JVC LS300 with a S35 sensor.
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Don't forget about the Sony NEX-VG900, which has a FF sensor! https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/prod...EX_VG900_Full_Frame_Interchangeable_Lens.html
(although this has almost none of the benefits of most camcorders)

junct said:
Yeah, I'm not married to full frame - just with more mirrorless and compact full frame options becoming accessible, it *feels* like a good thing to prioritise.
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Just be aware that FF will (often) mean more expense and weight when it comes to lenses. So if you're trying to stay within a certain budget a S35 or MFT sensor will almost always make more sense. All the hype around FF is a lot of marketing, and an effort to force people to buy more lenses (in my view). If there had been an option for a S35 FX6 I almost certainly would have chosen that instead of FF.

The GH5 or GH5s with the audio module (which has 2 XLR inputs) might be a good option. The lowlight performance of the GH5s is surprisingly good. DR isn't significantly better than the GH4, from what I recall, but it's not bad.

But I would second NorBro's suggestion of the JVC GY-LS300. Alternatively, you might look into a Sony FS700—terrible ergonomics, but at least it has internal NDs, proper buttons, etc. (and still produces a great image).

Finally, I think a C100 Mark II is well worth looking into: ergonomics of a proper video camera, a very solid HD image, and (from what I've head) pretty reliable AF.
 
ha, I was going to mention the VG900 just for fun but didn't want to cause anymore confusion (because some may wonder why more cameras like this don't exist, including myself).
 
When using a DSLM on tripod shots, I mount my audio recorder onto the pan arm using a rubber electrical clamp and QR plate, which helps keep the center of gravity low.
 
Matt Gottshalk said:
Another vote for the A7siii
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Probably a bit more than I'd want to spend on an SLR type body. At least in New Zealand, it's 3x more expensive than the gh5, and only a few hundred dollars cheaper than the Sony Fx3.

drboffa said:
Don't forget about the Sony NEX-VG900, which has a FF sensor! https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/prod...EX_VG900_Full_Frame_Interchangeable_Lens.html
(although this has almost none of the benefits of most camcorders)

The GH5 or GH5s with the audio module (which has 2 XLR inputs) might be a good option. The lowlight performance of the GH5s is surprisingly good. DR isn't significantly better than the GH4, from what I recall, but it's not bad.

But I would second NorBro's suggestion of the JVC GY-LS300. Alternatively, you might look into a Sony FS700—terrible ergonomics, but at least it has internal NDs, proper buttons, etc. (and still produces a great image).

Finally, I think a C100 Mark II is well worth looking into: ergonomics of a proper video camera, a very solid HD image, and (from what I've head) pretty reliable AF.
Click to expand...

The gh5s is an intruiging camera - I remember people being quite upset that they took out IS on it vs the gh5. Panasonic does have some appeal as I have a friend who's worked there forever, so he can get me his staff discount..

The JVC camera is looking increasingly appealing. I'll need to do some more research on it (and the Sony you mentioned).

Thanks for the other suggestions, I'll need to sit down with a spreadsheet and make some comparisons..
 
The Sony is old and its IQ is about as good as a potato's.

It was a gimmick camera that the world wasn't ready for, but I think it's really awesome that Sony tried it.

On that note, the LS300 was kind of a gimmick too and JVC bumbled its launch and development and by the time it was really ready and much better after a major firmware update or two, everyone had moved on.

And I always felt JVC was pretty disappointed by that but at that time you had Blackmagics and new Sony mirrorless' flying around left and right that people just didn't wait around.

Also - for the Sony - the dynamic range is worse than a GH4's as putting any form of LOG in cameras back then was practically unheard of (besides a few models here and there).
 
Yeah just to be clear I would not at all recommend the Sony NEX-VG900. I merely mentioned it as a curiosity.

I know you said they were still a bit expensive down your way but I'd still consider looking for a used Fs5. The camera ticks a lot of your boxes and it's an absolute bargain these days (at least the deals I'm seeing in various FB groups). Prices here in the US have dropped so much that it's not worth it for me to sell mine, as there's no way I could replace it with something comparable for the amount I'd get. It has its quirks but it's a fantastic camera and a near-perfect camera for a one-person shooter setup.
 
Well I was barely even aware of JVC - I stopped paying attention to camera news after buying a gh4 about 5 years ago. They may be a recent entrant to the NZ market, as I've never seen their kit anywhere - but there is one shop that sells the Ls300 it seems.



I'll get in touch with rental houses who might be moving on old Fs5s. We don't really have a dedicated marketplace for second hand film equipment here, being such a small population cine equipment is too niche for NZ's equivalent of eBay. As such, rental houses often end up as informal market places, even on behalf of their customers.
 
If you decide on the LS300, I just want to kindly warn you that it has one of the worst LCDs I've ever used, so don't be frightened by the picture quality as the internal recordings are MUCH nicer. lol
 
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