lav and voice recorder

V

vip77

Active member
I'm looking to put together some sort of combination of digital voice recorder and lav for a shoot. (And yes I know it's some work in post)

Preferably a setup that includes a lav that is easily concealed and a dvr that is not so bulky that actors won't get annoyed.

So far for lavs I'm leaning toward a Shure SM93 (cheap) or Countryman B6 (expensive).

And for DVR's I'm leaning toward an Olympus WS-321M (cheap) or Zoom H2 (expensive).


So any other suggestions, or complications???
 
So are you planning on running the lav, hard-wired, straight to the recorder, and planting the recorder on one of the actors?

That's not just work in post, that's taking a huge risk in production. You won't be able to listen to the recording as it's being made, which means that you won't know that you recorded good audio until after the fact (too late at that point). You'll have to trust that you set a safe recording level. And if something happens... the actor turns or leans the wrong way... and the mic is disconnected, you won't know in time to fix it. Neither the Olympus nor the Zoom H2 have locking XLR connections, only 1/8", so there's a huge risk of disconnection.

How many of these set-ups are you planning to have operating at any given time?

Your most economical solution is to go completely off boom mic (hypercardioid for indoors, shotgun for most outdoors), run through a decent mixer (at the very least, Sound Devices MixPre), and then to a recorder or to the camera. For lavs, wired means restricted movement and cables running down pant legs. Wireless gives flexibility of movement for both actors and mixer. And a mixer allows you to run multiple wireless lav systems.

And get good headphones. You want to be able to listen to the audio as it is being recorded.
 
Well, the situation is I'm shooting run and gun guerilla footage in London. So I'm looking for something inconspicuous (which a boom mic is not).

I'm considering getting a separate, cheap wireless (maybe an AT Pro 88w) although I'm concerned with the amount of interference in Central London.

So, if I could find a good lav and dvr combo, i think that would be ideal--at least for what I'm trying to do. And if it works well enough I might buy a set of lavs and dvr for each actor.

Also, are there any moderately priced dvr's with xlr connections?
 
vip77 said:
Well, the situation is I'm shooting run and gun guerilla footage in London. So I'm looking for something inconspicuous (which a boom mic is not).

I'm considering getting a separate, cheap wireless (maybe an AT Pro 88w) although I'm concerned with the amount of interference in Central London.

So, if I could find a good lav and dvr combo, i think that would be ideal--at least for what I'm trying to do. And if it works well enough I might buy a set of lavs and dvr for each actor.

Also, are there any moderately priced dvr's with xlr connections?
Click to expand...

Based on those requirements, you are going to need to compromise here and there. If you can't afford a multi-channel transmitter/receiver (something like a Sennheiser Evolution G2) and need to go with a portable XLR recorder you might get by with something like a Zoom H4.

Good luck, Michael
 
this is a perfect examply of hiring a pro instead of buying totally the wrong gear for the situation, plus, the fact that you dont own lav's as of present leads me
to believe you probably dont have the experience in hiding mic's.
Added to that you wont be able to monitor...
you're asking for a disaster.

If you wont hire a pro with gear, then at least rent the gear you need. If you're doing
this for a client, do you really want to risk your rep, and future work on it?
 
Rippie said:
this is a perfect examply of hiring a pro instead of buying totally the wrong gear for the situation, plus, the fact that you dont own lav's as of present leads me
to believe you probably dont have the experience in hiding mic's.
Added to that you wont be able to monitor...
you're asking for a disaster.

If you wont hire a pro with gear, then at least rent the gear you need. If you're doing
this for a client, do you really want to risk your rep, and future work on it?
Click to expand...

Look, I never claimed to be a professional soundman,
but I am an experienced filmmaker.

I'm simply looking for a solution that will work within the given parameters.

So instead of ridicule I would appreciate suggestions.

Thanks
 
vip77 said:
Look, I never claimed to be a professional soundman,
but I am an experienced filmmaker.

I'm simply looking for a solution that will work within the given parameters.

So instead of ridicule I would appreciate suggestions.

Thanks
Click to expand...
last time i checked it WAS a suggestion.
How is it ridicule to say I think you're buying gear that is setting you up for possible disaster?
Just as the other poster said, you wont be able to monitor what you're recording.
You wont be able to monitor clothing rustle, if the mic fell off, etc..etc.
At least when you're monitoring it, you can then try to FIX it if you hear it.

How is it ridicule to say the obvious, that you probably dont have the experience
of hiding mics? Thats not an insult. Hiding mic's is a black art, takes years to get down, and even then with ever changing factors there are still many
"what if's".

How is it ridicule to say that if you're doing this for a client, why would it be
worth it for you to risk your rep and future work?

Why is it ridicule to point out to you, that theres a pretty good reason you will RARELY find people recording audio the way you want to. (no way to monitor)

Why is it ridicule to mention it would be very wise to rent the proper gear?
 
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Okay, hypothetical situation, all the same equipment, two lavs and dvrs hooked up to two actors. Plus a mic through camera to me. That's three separate recordings.

Then we run through the lines and blocking whilst I'm hooked up to my headphones monitoring lav and dvr on one actor. Everything sounds fine.

Sure things can go wrong, but I am resigned to that.
Just want to minimize that possibility.
Don't mind doing adr, fellini did it.

Anyone know a good tutorial on hiding lavs???
 
You might try using a consumer quality radio transmitter out of the headphone jack of the recorder with your amateur soundman monitoring the receiver. At least this way you would know that nothing came loose during the shoot, even if you can't ride the gain and the monitoring quality is low.

I've actually (ridicule of the idea here aside) been considering something similar. I really don't like the idea of spending 600 bucks minimum a channel when the system might be worthless in a year. And some of us don't have the budget to hire professionals and their equipment for every shoot we do on our own projects.
 
Thebes said:
I really don't like the idea of spending 600 bucks minimum a channel when the system might be worthless in a year.
Click to expand...

Only certain channel blocks will be affected, though the OP is in Great Britain so there's a completely different signal allocation there.
 
C2V said:
Only certain channel blocks will be affected, though the OP is in Great Britain so there's a completely different signal allocation there.
Click to expand...

I had thought that there were 2 different issues in the US. The 700mhz block that will be unlawful due to emergency use, and the white space block that will be encroached upon by wireless service that the FCC promises won't interfere even though tests show otherwise. Are there lower/mid end wireless systems that won't be effected by either of these issues (ie under say $600)?

Any idea how a simple fm transmitter would work for monitoring only? I know it would be sort of ghetto, but it might offer a very good sound quality for the money... better than a shotgun too far away at least. It would overcome the most obvious issue with the OP's idea of putting the recorder on the person.
 
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vip77 said:
Well, the situation is I'm shooting run and gun guerilla footage in London. So I'm looking for something inconspicuous (which a boom mic is not).

I'm considering getting a separate, cheap wireless (maybe an AT Pro 88w) although I'm concerned with the amount of interference in Central London.

So, if I could find a good lav and dvr combo, i think that would be ideal--at least for what I'm trying to do. And if it works well enough I might buy a set of lavs and dvr for each actor.

Also, are there any moderately priced dvr's with xlr connections?
Click to expand...

Okay, let's look at the bottom line. Forgive using North American currency for discussion. For two actors two lav mics are essential - you simply cannot put a lav on one actor and properly record dialog from both, that is if they are any farther apart than they'd be in a sex scene. Two audio recorders of minimum acceptable quality and small enough to plant on the talent, something like the Zoom H2 for example, are going to cost you - what? - $400 or $500 for the pair. Recorders with balanced mic inputs .... at least double that. Add to that the mics themselves, say $100 to $200 each. And you're still facing all the risks of being unable to monitor while recording AND issues of sync when you get to post. (That is, unless you multiply the budget by a factor of 20 and get a pair of the new Zaxcom mini sync-sound recorders.) So let's say your total cost for a pair of minimal recorders with a pair of ordinary quality lavs is going to run in the neighborhood of $750. But $750 could also RENT you a pair of professional grade wireless units with pro quality lav mics for far more time than most indy films might require. For example, here in Toronto a Sennheiser G2 setup with mic rents for $20 per day, $80 a week, or $240 a month. $500 gets you a pair of them for a whole month and you're still saving $250 over buying marginal consumer gear that has little or no reasle value and with all its attendant headaches .
 
Jesus....

Stay away from the olympus.... it doesn't record 48k.
Looks like it only has 1 GB internal memory.

Zoom H4 know for sync issues with video, and you want the least of that.

Try this:

http://www.edirol.net/products/en/R-09HR/

It will power Countryman lavs.

Will run 8 hours at 48k/16b with 2 AA NiMH batteries.
 
Thebes said:
I had thought that there were 2 different issues in the US. The 700mhz block that will be unlawful due to emergency use, and the white space block that will be encroached upon by wireless service that the FCC promises won't interfere even though tests show otherwise. Are there lower/mid end wireless systems that won't be effected by either of these issues (ie under say $600)?

Any idea how a simple fm transmitter would work for monitoring only? I know it would be sort of ghetto, but it might offer a very good sound quality for the money... better than a shotgun too far away at least. It would overcome the most obvious issue with the OP's idea of putting the recorder on the person.
Click to expand...
Or possibly a bluetooth transmitter, just for monitoring?

Are there any complications arising from that?
 
BRH said:
Jesus....

Stay away from the olympus.... it doesn't record 48k.
Looks like it only has 1 GB internal memory.

Zoom H4 know for sync issues with video, and you want the least of that.

Try this:

http://www.edirol.net/products/en/R-09HR/

It will power Countryman lavs.

Will run 8 hours at 48k/16b with 2 AA NiMH batteries.
Click to expand...
The Edirol seems like an awful lot of money for not having xlr inputs.

What problems does the Zoom H4 have with sync?

Is it not just a simple case of stretching the audio track?
 
vip77 said:
Or possibly a bluetooth transmitter, just for monitoring?

Are there any complications arising from that?
Click to expand...

doesnt all of this (not just this post)
seem to be trying to reinvent the wheel
and overly complicate a very simple solution?
 
Rippie said:
doesnt all of this (not just this post)
seem to be trying to reinvent the wheel
and overly complicate a very simple solution?
Click to expand...

The problem I am seeing is that the simple solution might be about to stop working. If I could spend a grand for 2 channels of good wireless audio, knowing that the equipment would be worth the majority of what I paid a year or two later, I might have fewer thoughts about whether that tiny pre-amp I saw on eBay really did have less noise than my iRiver's built in one.

From what I understand, it seems that all channels for the G2, and other wireless systems in its class, will be effected by either interferance or outright ban within the next year or so in the USA. Indeed another user on this forum suggested to me that now is not a good time to buy a wireless system unless it is badly needed.

While renting might work for some, I am planning a doc with 6 weeks of shooting and travel (in 3 seperate chunks and with nary a rental house within 3 hours drive of me)... So I want to own the equipment I intend to use. If its got a little bit more pre-amp noise than a G2 system how many of my audience will notice? If I buy the G2 and can't recover my investment to help finance post, then how many will notice? Without a seperate mic pre my $40 iRiver already does as well as some poorer prosumer camcorders that use XLR inputs... I think its probably good enough to use with my D90 and HV20.

Lastly, in my case, both my budget and my access would vanish if I hired a professional.

I hope you can see why I'd be interested in an alternative solution.
 
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