Kick-Ass

Jawa Ex Machina said:
Harry and Massawyrm have written pretty good editorials on Ebert's review on aintitcool.com
Check them out.
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Read it.

Although he had better points this part made me chuckle...
But I remind you that there was a time, when Martin Scorsese was under fire for having a 13 year old Jodie Foster play a whore in TAXI DRIVER - which is more or less about a man that in the end is a hero for taking violent action to protect that girl.
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Some of his comments about what Roger grew up with were dead on.

MAH
 
Jawa Ex Machina said:
This is exactly what I mean by saying "or like it".
But you know, it's still ironic whether you like irony or not.

Which is why you can't compare people who like Kick-Ass to people who like children's beauty pageants since beauty pageants aren't ironic.
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Who said it wasn't ironic? Who cares if it is or not?

And who said they didn't like "irony"? Seriously, you think anyone who doesn't care for what happens in this film is hostile to irony as an entire concept? Is that really what you're saying?
 
Michael Anthony Horrigan said:
Read it.

Although he had better points this part made me chuckle...


Some of his comments about what Roger grew up with were dead on.

MAH
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Right. If Kick-Ass approaches its subject with the same realism and integrity as Taxi Driver approached child prostitution I'll eat my shoe...We weren't asked to cheer on Jodie Foster as she tried to give Travis Bickle head.
 
David Jimerson said:
Who said it wasn't ironic? Who cares if it is or not?

And who said they didn't like "irony"? Seriously, you think anyone who doesn't care for what happens in this film is hostile to irony as an entire concept? Is that really what you're saying?
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Well because it's like you said:

David Jimerson said:
I don't see anyone saying this movie is going to be the downfall of society, either, only that they wish people didn't get off on watching a foul-mouthed 11-year-old girl killer.
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If people don't get that people go see this movie and like the fact that the foul-mouthed killer is 11 years old because it's done in an ironic way, I could understand their argument. And I'm sure a lot of people close their minds to this movie because they don't get irony.
A lot of people in this world don't get irony.

But if you get irony, and you understand that Hit Girl is fun for the same reasons Eric Cartman is fun, then there's no real reason to wish other people wouldn't go see it if they like it, is there?

I don't like Harry Potter, Pirates of the Carribean, or ketchup with my french fries, but if other people do, hey that's cool.

It's the pornography and beauty pageant comparrisons I don't like, since that would suggest I'm... what exactly? You know?

Just saying.
 
Jawa Ex Machina said:
Well because it's like you said:


If people don't get that people go see this movie and like the fact that the foul-mouthed killer is 11 years old because it's done in an ironic way, I could understand their argument. And I'm sure a lot of people close their minds to this movie because they don't get irony.
A lot of people in this world don't get irony.

But if you get irony, and you understand that Hit Girl is fun for the same reasons Eric Cartman is fun, then there's no real reason to wish other people wouldn't go see it if they like it, is there?
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Or, perhaps what's "fun" about the "irony" is precisely that it's so objectionable, which is pretty much the point. See what I said above why people like profanity.

It's the pornography and beauty pageant comparrisons I don't like, since that would suggest I'm... what exactly? You know?

Just saying.
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I do think there's a particular knee-jerk reaction to say "if you don't like it, it's because you don't get it" as a mechanism for self-defense.
 
Batutta said:
Right. If Kick-Ass approaches its subject with the same realism and integrity as Taxi Driver approached child prostitution I'll eat my shoe...We weren't asked to cheer on Jodie Foster as she tried to give Travis Bickle head.
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The comparison was cheering on a man who was set on murdering innocent people, who instead killed these bad men and became a hero.
Except it's the girl (in Kick-Ass) who's doing the killing of the bad men and from what I gather she was never intending on hurting any innocent people. Unlike Travis Bickle, she's actually a hero. :)

I think that's the comparison he had in mind. Like I said, that one made me chuckle a little.

I like his take on the satire of regular superhero fair. I'm game for that and I'll be checking it out. You won't be catching me at any beauty pageants though. :D

MAH
 
David Jimerson said:
I do think there's a particular knee-jerk reaction to say "if you don't like it, it's because you don't get it" as a mechanism for self-defense.
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Well sure, but since it's human to dislike things we don't understand, there's also a certain amount of truth to that statement as well, at least generally speaking. ;)

And a lot of people really don't get irony.
 
Michael Anthony Horrigan said:
The comparison was cheering on a man who was set on murdering innocent people, who instead killed these bad men and became a hero.
Except it's the girl (in Kick-Ass) who's doing the killing of the bad men and from what I gather she was never intending on hurting any innocent people. Unlike Travis Bickle, she's actually a hero. :)

I think that's the comparison he had in mind. Like I said, that one made me chuckle a little.

I like his take on the satire of regular superhero fair. I'm game for that and I'll be checking it out. You won't be catching me at any beauty pageants though. :D

MAH
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You really think Travis Bickle is set up as a hero???...He is very clearly a disturbed man who grows even more so during the course of the film and takes drastic actions no sane person would, trying to kill a politician for no real reason. His actions have bloody consequences that are not stylized or hyped up to seem cool. They are portrayed in all their lurid horror. And his character and pathology is explored in detail from every angle. That society in the end treats him as a hero was a statement about society...and that is an irony I enjoy. At the end of the film, we see he is still a disturbed individual...I found Harry's whole defense kind of laughable, but I didn't expect much from him. This is a man who once waxed poetic about Hayden Pantierre's hymen.
 
Batutta, as I said, not his best point and it made me laugh.

Still, I give the guy credit for keeping the comparisons movie based and not, oh, I don't know, comparing it to a beauty pageant or something. :laugh:

j/k

All this over a movie that most people here have not even seen. Didn't the guy bashing Avatar get trashed for doing that? :)

MAH
 
Jawa Ex Machina said:
Travis Bickle is very much a hero. Just like Rambo or The Punisher, he's an anti-hero.
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Exactly. He's not a hero. He's an ANTI-hero. Meaning the antithesis of a hero...A protagonist and a hero are not the same thing. He is the protagonist because the entire story is told from his point of view, and his actions are what move the story along...The intention of Scorsese was not to hold up Travis as a heroic figure. He was drawing a portrait of a disturbed, lonely young man who doesn't know how to connect to the world around him so he strikes out at it in retribution. That the world he lived in deserved that retribution was his only saving grace....By the way, Taxi Driver is one of my two or three favorite films.
 
Michael Anthony Horrigan said:
Batutta, as I said, not his best point and it made me laugh.

Still, I give the guy credit for keeping the comparisons movie based and not, oh, I don't know, comparing it to a beauty pageant or something. :laugh:

j/k

All this over a movie that most people here have not even seen. Didn't the guy bashing Avatar get trashed for doing that? :)

MAH
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Yes, he did...and I did some of the trashing...and well, he did see the movie and then hated it even more than he thought he would...so i guess I'll shut up now.
 
Batutta said:
...A protagonist and a hero are not the same thing. He is the protagonist because the entire story is told from his point of view, and his actions are what move the story along...
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Michael Anthony Horrigan said:
All this over a movie that most people here have not even seen. Didn't the guy bashing Avatar get trashed for doing that? :)
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Not exactly. He said it the worst movie ever made and could never hold a candle to . . . well, whatever he said. He trashed the movie thoroughly, based on little other than he objects to it being made for profit.

This is more about a specific -- and intentionally controversial -- aspect of the film, which isn't in doubt. And, mostly, it's about Ebert's review.

But, going too far into the weeds without having seen it is always suspect, sure.
 
Batutta said:
Exactly. He's not a hero. He's an ANTI-hero. Meaning the antithesis of a hero...A protagonist and a hero are not the same thing. He is the protagonist because the entire story is told from his point of view, and his actions are what move the story along...The intention of Scorsese was not to hold up Travis as a heroic figure. He was drawing a portrait of a disturbed, lonely young man who doesn't know how to connect to the world around him so he strikes out at it in retribution. That the world he lived in deserved that retribution was his only saving grace....By the way, Taxi Driver is one of my two or three favorite films.
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No, Anti-hero doesn't mean the antithesis of a hero.

There are several types of heroes, like "The reluctant hero" etc.
An Anti-hero is a type of hero, who goes against society's rules and regulations. Like Scarface, or Michael Corleone.
But he's still a hero.

A protagonist doesn't always have to be a Hero, because not all stories follow Hero's journey, but the hero is the protagonist.

So yes. Travis Bickle IS a hero; an Anti-hero.
 
Jawa Ex Machina said:
No, Anti-hero doesn't mean the antithesis of a hero.

There are several types of heroes, like "The reluctant hero" etc.
An Anti-hero is a type of hero, who goes against society's rules and regulations. Like Scarface, or Michael Corleone.
But he's still a hero.

A protagonist doesn't always have to be a Hero, because not all stories follow Hero's journey, but the hero is the protagonist.

So yes. Travis Bickle IS a hero; an Anti-hero.
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This is one of those grey areas where semantics break down, so any argument will never be settled, but for anti-hero to have any meaning, the word hero has to connotate some kind of positive value on its own. It's like saying you can be Christ AND the Anti-Christ. Not possible.
 
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