Is there really a benefit using ProRes?

Perrone, using that to convert, do you notice a loss in quality? An increase in file size? Is it easier on your computer and can you edit and watch your footage without having to render files first? Easy to use?

Really appreciate if you have time to answer those questions. Would be great to find a solution to the difficult workflow of these mov files.

thanks!
 
Postmaster said:
I use always uncompressed till I output.
And yeah, it takes some TBs of storage but I don´t care.

I always have the best possible quality during my workflow and it´s easy on the CPU - that means editing is smooth, fast and realtime.

Frank
Click to expand...

How big does your uncompressed file get at full 1080 25p per minute of material?
 
> I'm running FCP Studio 2, is "ProRes LT" only available in later versions?

Yes, unfortunately.

Green Hornet said:
From David At Cineform, he says...:

Cineform Low is a higher datarate than ProRes Proxy
Cineform Medium is a lower datarate than ProResLT
Cineform High = ProResSQ
Cineform Filmscan1 = ProResHQ
Cineform Filmscan2 = ProRes doesn't have setting that high
Cineform 444 not equal to ProRes444 -- CineForm 444 is RGB based, ProRES is always YUV
Cineform 4444 not equal to ProRes4444 -- RGBA vs YUVA
Cineform RAW = N/A
Click to expand...

That's good comparative info, thanks.
 
PaPa said:
Perrone, using that to convert, do you notice a loss in quality? An increase in file size? Is it easier on your computer and can you edit and watch your footage without having to render files first? Easy to use?

Really appreciate if you have time to answer those questions. Would be great to find a solution to the difficult workflow of these mov files.

thanks!
Click to expand...

Ok, one at a time.

Loss in quality - No.
Increase in file size - Yes
Is it easier on my computer - Yes, by a wide margin
Can I watch footage without having to render first - Yes
Easy to use - Yes


Now, all that said, I must say this. The .MOV container on a Windows machine is a compromise. At least it is inside most NLEs. Most NLEs make a call outside the application to decode .MOV files, and this makes them quite slow. So what you REALLY want is a .AVI encoded file. Cineform is the best solution for this. Unfortunately, it is not an option for me. But for most people, it is exactly what they should be using.
 
Can someone here who is knowledgeable about Cineform (Mac) tell me whether there are negative implications for sending an FCP sequence containing Cineformed footage to Color? Does Color effectively downgrade the sequence to 8 bit when it sends the sequence back to FCP?
 
SWB said:
I recently used ProRes 422 (compressor v3.1) for a short documentary project. The file sizes are absolutely ludicrous- I ended up with over a terabyte of data for a 20 minute short (granted I shot a LOT of footage). Each file was 4-5 times bigger than the raw clips. Since then I've tried using the lower quality version, which has resulted in somewhat manageable file sizes that stutter frequently during playback. My system is a six month old 2.8 core2duo MBP with 4mb of DDR3, so I really can't believe it's not watchable with anything but the full blown ProRes.

How does everyone deal with these insane ProRes file sizes? Do I really need a more powerful system? Also, I'm running FCP Studio 2, is "ProRes LT" only available in later versions?
Click to expand...

Yeah, I heard that ProRes LT came with Final Cut Studio 3. I have Studio 2 like you and only have ProRes 422 and ProRes 422 HQ. I just use ProRes 422 for 7D stuff. Apparently HQ is really only important if you're into some seriously important footage. I think most pros can't even tell the difference.

As far as the file sizes go, this is nothing new to working with Long GOP footage from a Sony camera like the EX1. Due to the Long GOP file structure, you can cut the footage just fine, but as soon as you layer anything, do transitions, effects, and ESPECIALLY export, it will take an excruciatingly long time to process. So, you just convert to ProRes as soon as you ingest and avoid any problems.

But really...storage shouldn't be as much of an issue with current prices.
 
carlone said:
Thanks for the great answers/information.

It sounds like the real benefit is for color correction but I still don't get how converting a file to 10 bit 4:2:2 when the camera writes the file as 8 bit 4:2:0 does anything more than just create a larger file. The only new data being added is 1's and 0's, no new information that pertains to color space.
Click to expand...

I still don't understand the whole color space stuff myself. Unless you're a colorist, I wouldn't get too hung up on the details there...until you need to be.

I do understand "processor overload" though. Even though ProRes creates a larger file, it is actually easier for a computer to process it than a smaller h.264 file. My understanding is that it has something to do with the extremely intense compression/decompression of h.264 itself. It delivers amazing images at smaller file sizes, but at the cost of utilizing massive amounts of your processor to decompress. I think this is why most video cards have specs that specifically address h.264 acceleration and what not. At least, that is my understanding....

For anyone whose editing enables them to work with the native h.264 files, I celebrate your freedom and wish you well. For almost everyone else, it simply makes for a painless editing experience to convert to ProRes.
 
Just wanna warn ya'll prores users about a ***** I discovered with prores4444

Try taking it to color and look at your parade. It clips super whites and sub blacks whether you have broadcast safe checked or not.

Transcode the same footage to proresHQ and take it to color and look hey presto, I got my wider range back.
 
looks like cineform might be the best way to go then.

quick question, which software am i looking for?

Cineform Neoscene
Cineform Aspect HD
Cineform Neo HD

or do they all offer the conversion required to grab my 7D footage, bring it to 10 bit AVI and make workflow a whole lot smoother?
 
@PaPa:

Cineform Aspect HD - Is discontinued. now they have basically two lines Jonathan:

Neo (scene/4d/HD/3d) and

Prospect (HD/4k)

Neo converts files to Cineform, the main differences are bit depth and recording features.

Prospect does all that, plus comes with the realtime engine (Windows Premiere only).

Check it out: http://www.cineform.com/products.php



ROCKMORE said:
How big does your uncompressed file get at full 1080 25p per minute of material?
Click to expand...

In the neighborhood of 600 MB per minute. Here is the full list:

720p HDTV uncompressed;
8 bit @ 1280 x 720 @ 59.94field = 105 MB per/sec, or 370 GB per/hr.
10 bit @ 1280 x 720 @ 59.94field = 140 MB per/sec, or 494 GB per/hr.

1080i and 1080p HDTV (4:2:2) uncompressed;
8 bit @ 1920 x 1080 @ 24fps = 95 MB per/sec, or 334 GB per/hr.
10 bit @ 1920 x 1080 @ 24fps = 127 MB per/sec, or 445 GB per/hr.

8 bit @ 1920 x 1080 @ 25fps = 99 MB per/sec, or 348 GB per/hr.
10 bit @ 1920 x 1080 @ 25fps = 132 MB per/sec, or 463 GB per/hr.

8 bit @ 1920 x 1080 @ 29.97fps = 119 MB per/sec, or 417 GB per/hr.
10 bit @ 1920 x 1080 @ 29.97fps = 158 MB per/sec, or 556 GB per/hr.

1080i and 1080p HDTV RGB (4:4:4) uncompressed;
10 bit @ 1280 x 720p @ 60fps = 211 MB per/sec, or 742 GB per/hr.
10 bit @ 1920 x 1080 @ 24PsF = 190 MB per/sec, or 667 GB per/hr.
10 bit @ 1920 x 1080 @ 50i = 198 MB per/sec, or 695 GB per/hr.
10 bit @ 1920 x 1080 @ 60i = 237 MB per/sec, or 834 GB per/hr.

Frank
 
Last edited:
Thought I would chime in. I use MPEG Streamclip to copy/transcode straight from the card into ProRes LT on my system drive. You can choose from a number of different codecs, and hear that XDCAM is also a good option. For me LT works great and the workflow is fast.
 
PaPa said:
looks like cineform might be the best way to go then.

quick question, which software am i looking for?

Cineform Neoscene
Cineform Aspect HD
Cineform Neo HD

or do they all offer the conversion required to grab my 7D footage, bring it to 10 bit AVI and make workflow a whole lot smoother?
Click to expand...



I would say Prospect HD.
(They don't make Aspect HD anymore)

I just tried First light today, and my Jaw Dropped at how well it corrects color, blown out highlights and adds meta data to the file, with just a click, and you can duplicate this to other clips with just a click.

First light comes with Cineform (not sure if it comes with all versions, bu it comes with Prospect HD). With Prospect HD, you can select all compressions up to Film 2 size.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top