General Is it allowed to show brands in an indy? without permission

M

Mike Brent

Carbonite Member
Hey,

Its a general question - someone told me that in film school he was told never to show any brand or copyrighted material as part of a shot... not in the background, not mentioned, not inferred, etc... I told him that I think the school just wanted to avoid problems but its just not possible that it is illegal to show EVERYTHING.

So whats the deal here? I my character walk around the street and looking into store's front? Can it read a Time magazine? Can it drink from a can a coke? Can two people watch TV while a movie is showing?

A trickier one:

Can music come out of a radio?

And finally - if the answer is really "no" - would anybody care if we would????

Thanks
 
The very general answer is "it's okay...probably."

Basically you're giving the brand free promotion. Just walking by a store or drinking a soda should be fine.

The tricky territory is if you use a brand in a way that defames the product. If your character flies into a murderous rage every time he takes a sip of Coca Cola, they might have a teensy problem with that. Don't do it.

As for music from a radio, I wouldn't do that either. Use something copyright-free or get permission from the copyright holder.

In all reality, for a small "for-fun" or student project, most artists/labels won't make any noise. If you release, or submit to festivals, you'll usually be required to have releases on music. If you were to get by, and the artist/label finds out, you would probably be sued.
 
OK, so music is no, everything else "ok" if I don't defame.

What about shooting in the street and just having random people in the back, who don't know that I'm even there?

Showing a poster of a movie?

Boy, that school really scared the sh$t out of my friends.
 
haircut said:
The very general answer is "it's okay...probably."

Basically you're giving the brand free promotion. Just walking by a store or drinking a soda should be fine.
Click to expand...

Actually, the very general answer is "not at all."

Music coming from a radio must be licensed, or original for the production. Same with anything they character(s) may be watching on TV or in a theater.

Products must be licensed as well. So what if your character is drinking a name-brand soft drink and isn't defaming that product directly. What if the overall production promotes themes that the drink manufacturer doesn't like?

In every large-budget TV show and movie that you see, every product that shows up on screen is carefully placed, and is done so more as product placement (like an ad purchased by the manufacturer) that by licensing.

I think* the only place you can get away with it with no permissions or product placement would be grocery/convenient store scenes where there are several brands on the shelves next to each other and they are all very much in the background without prominent features.

*I make no claims to the accuracy of the previous statement. The more specific and helpful answer for you is: "consult an entertainment attorney."
 
They care and you better not test the waters...

Music is a No no as said above. If you have a copyrighted movie shown on screen somewhere you need a release, even for a TV ad or TV program unless its a news driven documentary feature which is protected by the freedom of the press and even then Michael Moore for instance has a release for everything since he is a fiery target for many groups.

Try not to show any logos and any street signs or billboards. If you have to shoot in that location then use a tripod steady shot with either a fast lens zoomed in to blur the BG or the steady solid shot will let you replace the billboards with mattes you create then fix it in post.

I once got a project of roto-ing a laptop logo since the villain in the movie used it and the company was contacted and denied permission for that character to use it, the hero was ok but the villain was a big No No. You are better safe than sorry so try to shoot without showing logos or even GUIs on the OS. Mac OSX for example has been released legally for many movies and denied for many others that's why you see a bunch of fake OS GUIs in movies. Its just a big headache.

Just be extra safe and use off brand cola if you must have a drink instead. Actor covering label with the hand :D
 
Is it okay if someone comes breaking into your house, as long as they're a small, no-budget thief?

Um, no.

So, okay, here's the deal: if you are taking someone else's property, you had better have their permission. Whether it's music, artwork, a trademark, a service mark, any copyrighted material, it doesn't matter.

Now, does that make it "illegal"? No, not necessarily -- but you don't get to determine what's legal or right and what isn't. You don't get to take someone else's property (i.e., use their music, or use their artwork, or their poster, or -- whatever) and then justify it by saying "it's okay, I'm giving them free exposure." Property is property, and nobody gets to appropriate anyone else's property, period.

What about if you're no-budget, does that make it okay? Of course not. Would you be okay with someone taking your car for a joyride, because they were poor? Or if they took your car to drive to work, because they didn't have bus fare and they really "needed" to get to work? Would that make it okay? Of course not.

Now -- the question I think Mike is asking is: will anyone care? If they never know about it, and nobody ever sees your film (like as is the destiny of 99% of no-budget productions) then you can probably get away with it. Just like speeding -- if you don't get caught, you got away with it. But you're still breaking the law and in the wrong... just 'cause you don't get caught, that doesn't make it right.

So -- finally -- is it ALWAYS wrong to show stuff? No, there are exceptions -- there's incidental use, there's fair use exceptions for documentaries, news programs, parodies, etc. If you're making an entertainment piece, you pretty much don't qualify for any of those...

The easiest one to rely on is the notion of incidental use, in that if the showing of the product or brand is entirely incidental and not in any way focused on or relevant to the production or the story, then it's not really any big deal. Just like faces in a crowd -- if there are a thousand faces in a crowd shot, and none of them are focused on or extremely recognizable, then you don't really need a release on those people. But if you interview someone, you had better have a release! And if you show a brand up close, if you're using it to advance your story or in any way highlighting it in your production, then you're on shaky ground and should ask permission.
 
Mike Brent said:
Hey,

Its a general question - someone told me that in film school he was told never to show any brand or copyrighted material as part of a shot... not in the background, not mentioned, not inferred, etc... I told him that I think the school just wanted to avoid problems but its just not possible that it is illegal to show EVERYTHING.

So whats the deal here? I my character walk around the street and looking into store's front? Can it read a Time magazine? Can it drink from a can a coke? Can two people watch TV while a movie is showing?

A trickier one:

Can music come out of a radio?

And finally - if the answer is really "no" - would anybody care if we would????

Thanks
Click to expand...

You don't have to speculate about it, the laws are clearly written. Study the laws. This is a good place to start.
http://www.copyright.gov/help/faq/
 
If you are a "low budget thief" they would hunt you down like a dog. If you are rich - you can get away with murder.

I love this country.
 
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

;)

"Copyright does not protect facts, ideas, systems, or methods of operation, although it may protect the way these things are expressed."

Copyright law says that you cannot copyright an idea only the form of an idea takes. In other words, it is ok to show a can of Coke or an Apple branded computer in your movie because you're not selling a beverage with the coke logo or a computer with an Apple logo, you're "selling" a movie. If you put a song or a clip you didn't create in your movie that thing is still a song or still a clip or still an image, therefore you cannot use it without permission. However, since that computer is no longer a computer, or the soda a can of soda, you can use it. The logo is still an image but that logo is inextricably tied to the product itself. If you went to Coke's website and pulled off a picture of the Coke logo from there and then put that in your movie you would not be in compliance with copyright law as you're using the logo directly, you took a literal image that they created.

In any case the law gets a whole lot less fuzzy if you're talking about something in public. For example if there is a giant Samsung billboard in times square and you film in times square you are perfectly within your rights to use that image in your film, as that logo was in public, presented in public...same logic as legally being allowed to photograph and film people without their permission in public spaces. Now, if there was a video playing on a billboard in times square, and you filmed that, things get a bit stickier because you're then keeping the idea in the same form.
 
No, the general answer is not "not at all."

The two areas of law we're dealing with are appropriation and libel (via defamation). If your production in any way makes waves with the company because of your content, valid arguments can be quickly and soundly constructed by their experienced legal teams. You don't have an experienced legal team, so you should err on the side of caution.

But, as Barry Green said, most films will never go anywhere. Are you just making something to learn from and show your friends? You will most likely be fine (as in not sued). To be safe: Are you making profit off the movie? Then don't show a logo - you might be appropriating it. Could it be argued in any way that the content of your film reflects negatively on a brand? Then don't do it - you could be libeling the company.

But definitely DO NOT mess around with music or TV/movies shown on screen. As Ben_B said, you're using property. No argument has to be made there. If you have to show something, go to archive.org and get a public domain clip, or find some royalty and copyright free music online.
 
Ben_B said:
In other words, it is ok to show a can of Coke or an Apple branded computer in your movie because you're not selling a beverage with the coke logo or a computer with an Apple logo, you're "selling" a movie.
Click to expand...
Are you certain of the legal basis for what you're saying? I find what you're asserting to be very... um ... well, totally against everything I've ever been told. At the bare minimum you're ignoring the appropriation of a trademark, you're ignoring the copyright on the Coke can's artwork, you're ignoring the registered trademark of the Apple logo...

Companies are legally OBLIGATED to go after you, to actively defend their trademarks, or risk losing them. Go paint some Disney characters on the walls of your daycare center, and see if Disney cares (hint: they do).

Again, incidental use (like the Chevy logo on a car in the parking lot) is something you don't really have to worry about. But if you're featuring something, if you're making it part and parcel of your story and are calling attention to it... you better make sure that you have whatever appropriate permissions you need before doing that.

In any case, we should leave the legal discussion to the lawyers.
 
Last edited:
Mike Brent said:
If you are a "low budget thief" they would hunt you down like a dog. If you are rich - you can get away with murder.

I love this country.
Click to expand...
Actually it's quite the opposite. If you have money a lawyer has a reason to go after you. If not then they won't be interested in you.
 
Yeah as has been said, check everything.

Here's the thing though, and this is where it gets complicated:
It also depends on where in the world you shoot and show the film.

For instance, here in Sweden you can get away with a lot more than in the US, because we have laws that say you can openly shoot in public places and as long as someone doesn't walk up to you and say they don't want you to use the material, you can.
buildings etc are also always fine as long as it's in a public place.

I used to work for a TV show once, buying clips from anything from The Simpsons to obscure Japanese humor. We have a law here that says if the TV is on, and in the background basically, and whatever show or movie is on is broadcast at the time (and not played on a DVD or VCR or something), you don't have to clear it. Same goes for radio I believe.
But that's here, and I doubt most countries have a law like that.

For MARIRANNE, we clear Everything and use only new music.


Here's the kicker though: All this is a good thing in a way, because if you start clearing your name brands way before you start shooting you can get a lot of promotion deals as an indie filmmaker. That's a valuable thing for your production.
 
realistically you have nothing to worry about.


music? yeah dont do it. logos and stuff in the background or not a big part of your scene? probably doesnt matter.

yeah a company COULD sue you but thats a very small probability. very small. just go on youtube. there are people making a living off of videos, and i've personally seen tons of unintentional advertising. if you want to submit this to something really big then you might not want to take my advice, but something to think about.

heck, i made a music video from a mickey avalon song with half a million views and no one cares.
 
The public space is not a private property. The corporations have billboards and logos scattered everywhere but I don't think this give them the right to prevent you to make your documentary or your film in the streets, in the public space. It's incredible that some filmakers don't defend this fundamental right. The entire copyright issue is a matter of life and death for the freedom of expression, art and life in our society today.
 
The reality is that nothing has legally changed very much for a long time - We've had copyrighted trade names, brands, and even, using the Disney example again, proper names - If a youth group are doing a christmas kids show with the seven dwarfs, they cannot use the Disney content. So 'Hi-Ho, Hi-Ho, it's off to work ...' is out, and having one of your characters called the same as the Disney 7 is problematic. However, like all things, it only becomes a problem when you ask them, or somehow they get to know about it.

Somebody once said to me that if you have to ask, then you'll almost certainly be doing something you shouldn't - using the premise that if you just did it, in most cases, the worst would be you get told to cease and desist. This usually would mean penetration was enough to draw their attention to it, and they contact you because they don't like it - for whatever reason. If they spot it, and find it innocent enough (and possibly, they may consider it a positive thing) then they usually pay no attention officially. If they do not approve, they'll get in touch and you must go along with it. If you ask on a forum, or other public arena, then as soon as one person says NO, then the 'badness' of what you've done, if you carry on gets worse - so if it did get ugly, you aren't totally innocent any longer - you kind of admitted you knew it was wrong and carried on. This is the kind of thing suddenly brought up by the legal beagles.

Almost everything is wrong to some degree - the knife edge is deciding.

I do an awful lot of theatrical work, and specially composed music replaces 'Hi-Ho' with a song that is called 'Ho-Hi', and the names are all of a similar kind, but NOT Disney's. The tune, after 80 odd performances is very different to the Disney one, but the composer clever enough to have written something the same, but different enough to be considered a new piece, but perfectly acceptable as a replacement.

The current TV practice of blobbing brands is getting very silly. I watched one of my son's wrestling DVDs (Thanks America, for this quality 'sport') and because WW something has turned into WW something else because people get wrestlers mixed up with antelope, all the old matches have every instance of the WW word blobbed, which is really distracting.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top