Is GH1 or GH2 really the right camera for the people who own one?

Lucas Adamson

Lucas Adamson

Well-known member
I ask this because it seems to me, having owned this GH1 for 2 weeks now, and researching Vimeo and DVXUser, Phillip Bloom etc etc. that an awful lot of people want to use these cameras for making narrative cinematic films, and in a way the cameras seem ideally suited to that. They are full HD, have roughly 35mm movie sized sensors, are progressive scan capable, produce stunning images etc.

The problem is this...why are so many people who seem to have those aspirations doing significant numbers of "camera test" style videos and Phillip Bloom style cinematography films, set to music, and so few people, it seems to me, making real narrative shorts and features with these cameras?

The answer seems to be, at least to me, that getting it together to shoot double system sound, with a slate operator and a dedicated sound recordist requires a level of organisation that is really hard for most people in spite of their directorial ambitions, and requires people with a real specialism (in the case of a clapper loader, or boom op for example) that is almost but not quite possible to get your sister to do. Of course, assistant camera and boom op. are not rocket science by any means, but also a nightmare if done badly, and can be film-ruining if even done even averagely. You need good people for these roles, and it's also so unglamorous that it's really hard to find people unless you can pay them properly, in my experience.

I am a film production graduate and an experienced producer, and it's still hard for me sometimes to organise a crew of 6 trained people to do my little shoots, because I can't pay much if anything.

So, whereas the DVX100 led to all these awesome spontaneous films, where are all the spontaneous GH1 narrative films?

Also, how do we support and encourage our community to make the narrative films they bought the cameras for in the first place?
 
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Cleaned up the insulting response to this thread... I think there's a good question worth exploring, especially with respectful responses.

I've been here since the beginning of the site, and the difference now to what it was then is pretty stark. I don't think the reason is due to double system sound. I think part of it is due to price bracket. The DVX/HVX are in a price bracket that is out of the hobbyist bracket. People purchasing these cameras aren't hobbyists but prosumer and professionals who rely on these tools to make a living.

The GH1/5D/7D/D90 is hitting a price bracket of user that can cheaply buy into the tech but doesn't necessarily use it for their bread and butter. A lot of them don't have experience on film sets and haven't completed a film. I think it's easy to pretend to know more and to pretend to have experience. It is very easy to collect a few lenses, load up on tech, and then post here to spout knowledge as if there is experience to back it up.

It is too bad, because it's true what we're seeing is an endless number of tests, shots of walls, basically footage to find any excuse not make a film. That is my honest perspective on this, it might be wrong, I'm sure there are other reasons one can come up with.

It is too bad more people in the DSLR sections don't get involved with the DVXfests. That has been a great breeding ground for talent and growth. We need more of that and less of the pixel-peeping.
 
Yeah, the reply to your opening post was a bit over the top.

I think the issue here is that the camera, while allowing people to enter the world of image creation at a very low price point, is not suited to long form movie production. It can be done, but it's not ideal. Secondly, as you alluded, it is difficult to keep a talented group of people together for the length of a project if some financial remuneration is missing. Good acting talent is expensive, and you need good actors. That's just a fact of life.

Thirdly, and this is also money related, movie production needs more than just the camera and sound. Lighting, location, logistics. LUNCH!

Finally, you need the right idea. A good script. Meticulous pre-production and then the patience and drive to see it all through. There aren't that many people around that can sustain that for the length of a long form narrative.

Although not a long form movie, Barry Green et al have just finished filming with a narrative on the AF100. If you can plough through all the posts, you'll find a wealth of information and some of your questions answered.

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthrea...rderlands-Spaghetti-Western-shot-on-the-AF100
 
stoneinapond said:
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Finally, you need the right idea. A good script. Meticulous pre-production and then the patience and drive to see it all through. There aren't that many people around that can sustain that for the length of a long form narrative.
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I´d agree on that. I myself did shoot a narrative short this summer, after developing an idea, writing a script and preproducing it together with my brother for a year or so, just to leave it sitting there on our hard drives for a few months now. It´s just so damn hard to keep working on it even though you sank money and time in it and even though you´re superhappy with the outcome! I restarted yesterday finally to work through the scenes to get a rough cut. :smile:

Funny thing though is that I´m thinking of buying the GH2, without so much as an idea of what to shoot with it. Buying gear is too damn easy!
 
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As much as I agree on an emotional level that there seems to be too much pixel-peeping and not enough moviemaking, I'm not sure it's all about a difference in price point. Saying that it's all about affordability of DSLRs assumes that only people who "do this for a living" have any talent or desire to make movies, which I do not think is true. I think it has something to do with how close the DSLR image is to Hollywood 35mm movies.
Flashback with me to 2001 when I bought a mini-DV Canon GL1. It was a 1/3" 3-CCD camera that shot 30P in 4:3 standard definition. So cinematic things like shallow DOF, 24p, widescreen, high dynamic range, high resolution were just not possible. In 2001, the gap between the tools that were available to us mere mortals and those of Hollywood was a wide chasm. So, we concentrated more on things like composition, lighting, editing and story to get us closer to a Hollywood movie. Maybe a Steadicam Jr. or a DIY dolly to mimic the smooth movements of bigger budget movies.

Back to today: Just switching a DSLR camera on and pointing it at something produces an HD, 24p image with Super-35 shallow DOF (or thereabouts). So there's an instant gratification that minimizes the ambition to learn the REAL craft of moviemaking, which is more about telling stories, creative compositon, lighting, etc.
Perhaps the pixel-peeping is a form of procrastination and denial. It's relatively easy to do. Like the OP said, getting a group together to do specialized filmmaking jobs without paying them takes energy and determination (or charisma). Good storytelling and lighting takes some degree of talent and experience. And in this era of short attention spans and desire for instant gratification, instead of creative output, you end up with a bunch of GH2 tests featuring cats and books on tables in horrendous available light.
 
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the GH1 has only been out for a year or two... id say its taken me that long to figure out how to control the damn thing :smile:

the DVX100 was probably out for years before "the awesome spontaneous films" appeared.

after initially buying a GH1 with the idea of making all the glorious films id dreamed of as a youth i realised the journey can be more rewarding than the final result :smile:

now that i've gained so much from the journey of learning/testing i feel more able and confident with making something real, valid and artistically correct.

i have 3 x 30 min short films planned for 2011 and i cant wait to get started! :smile:

plus theres so many distractions in the world these days that people are held back by them.

i 100% know what you mean tho, i often wonder where all the cool short films are hiding because most of what i find are tests and experiments.
 
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This is exactly the way I feel. There are literally thousands of "test" videos online, but hardly any actual scripted products. I for one appreciate the test films because to some extent they help me justify lens purchases and give me some creative ideas every once in a while. I am also in the pre production stage of shooting a feature length slapstick comedy (think american pie with more drugs) that starts shooting in Jan. We are shooting on the 7D and the GH1. I'm also planning a based on a true story feature based on the story of a very famous artist to be shot this coming summer on the 7D and GH1. Is it the right camera for shooting dramatic dialogue and cinematic films? Maybe not. Can I afford a RED or to shoot on super 16mm film or a few hvx's with 35 mm adaptors? Definitely not. So these cameras give the independent and some professional filmmakers the inexpensive way to get that big budget look. With all the extra pieces (follow focus, lenses, rails, etc. etc. etc.) I can achieve a pretty good look for my price range that can easily hold its own in the film festival market. Also, have you checked out some of the features and dramatic tv shows that are using these cameras now? Quite a few films are having to adapt to the small form factor of these cameras to fit into smaller locations and tighter budgets, but they are (for the most part) cutting these cameras with film and HDV tape without any problems. It's the new fad nowadays.
 
I am a film production graduate and an experienced producer, and it's still hard for me sometimes to organise a crew of 6 trained people to do my little shoots, because I can't pay much if anything.
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It may be that you answered your own question, it's too hard for most, or at least the mountain seems way too big to climb when you're at the bottom of it.
Personally, I enjoy some of the camera tests and short amateur films, when they're good, as much as I enjoy watching a feature film..just for different reasons. I've seen little family films on Vimeo, shot on DSLR that are absolutely beautiful.

Also, I'm not sure this a new trend. There were plenty of films shot over the years on 8mm/Super 8, that could be put in the same category. It's just a lot more widespread now.
Totally agree with your sentiment though, that perhaps there is a little too much focus on the tech/pixel peeping and not nearly enough on the artistry/craft.
 
One other reason there may be a lack of GH1 films online is that people are entering them into film festivals and don't want to "spoil" them by having them available online. That's the case with my GH1 short. Many film festivals will not accept your film if it's freely available online. And since GH1 images can look so good, filmmakers like myself who use it feel confident that their films can compete in good festivals. Anyone else here have a finished short that they aren't putting online?
 
I think "Knee-jerk" is the reaction that a lot of people are having with DSLR cameras right now. Many people are amazed that all of a sudden they have an inexpensive camera that can produce a very cinematic image. This was not possible without an expensive lens adapter system that was unusable in low light. Everyone seems to be playing right now. I'm hoping once people gets saturated with "depth of field slider shots of flowers" that some good narratives will start cropping up and people will start caring less about filmmakers who are just making pretty images.

I also don't really mind that this is a forum for gear heads who take shots of grass. I personally do not have the time to research and test gear and having a bunch of information and opinions helps me to not waste time and money. If I want film theory I'll go to Sense of Cinema or Moving Image Source or Artforum.


Just my $.02
 
I agree. I don't mind all the test footage. Some of the GH2 tests have helped me make decisions and future plans about how to use it. And to be honest, I've already seen some really good stuff shot with it.
 
I DP'd on a 60 minute narrative using my GH1, I've done a 5 minute and a 10 minute narrative short with it as well. I'll be doing a 5-10 minute narrative short with my GH2, and I am going to be crewing and managing post production for a 40 minute narrative using the 7D.
 
This is not about the camera. There are many highly skilled ppl in the video business. Some do their own sound, some work on a small budget, some work with the colleagues. They often have and use several different types of cameras. Anyone who can read a wave file does not need a slate--although a slate is handy, of course, and, double system sound is just one way to record sound--anyone with a zoom H2 can record double system sound, it doesn't make it good sound. Quality and skill rating are subjective, as is the choice of video type. I've seen some amazing work on this forum, and, more importantly for me, I have learned a great deal. Pppl record what they think is art, or valuable--the value could be a tiny reflection in a mirror, or a spinning toy to show how to get a better video, or it could be a real movie.
I'm sorry to say this, but referring to one's sister is off-putting. Some of the most talented people I have ever worked with are women, and they often do not participate in forums because of the environment--our loss.
 
Lucas Adamson said:
I ask this because it seems to me, having owned this GH1 for 2 weeks now, and researching Vimeo and DVXUser, Phillip Bloom etc etc. that an awful lot of people want to use these cameras for making narrative cinematic films, and in a way the cameras seem ideally suited to that. They are full HD, have roughly 35mm movie sized sensors, are progressive scan capable, produce stunning images etc.

The problem is this...why are so many people who seem to have those aspirations doing significant numbers of "camera test" style videos and Phillip Bloom style cinematography films, set to music, and so few people, it seems to me, making real narrative shorts and features with these cameras?

The answer seems to be, at least to me, that getting it together to shoot double system sound, with a slate operator and a dedicated sound recordist requires a level of organisation that is really hard for most people in spite of their directorial ambitions, and requires people with a real specialism (in the case of a clapper loader, or boom op for example) that is almost but not quite possible to get your sister to do. Of course, assistant camera and boom op. are not rocket science by any means, but also a nightmare if done badly, and can be film-ruining if even done even averagely. You need good people for these roles, and it's also so unglamorous that it's really hard to find people unless you can pay them properly, in my experience.

I am a film production graduate and an experienced producer, and it's still hard for me sometimes to organise a crew of 6 trained people to do my little shoots, because I can't pay much if anything.

So, whereas the DVX100 led to all these awesome spontaneous films, where are all the spontaneous GH1 narrative films?

Also, how do we support and encourage our community to make the narrative films they bought the cameras for in the first place?
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I think your post makes tremendous sense. Indeed, making a narrative film w/double system sound, and all that entails (actors, locations, etc., etc., the list goes on and on) is extraordinarily difficult and takes a great deal of time, patience and an unwillingness to quit. I've been in production on my feature now for 9 months - and we've still got 4 months left, and it seems to be the nature of the beast if you want to try to pull a narrative feature together and working around people's normal, every day schedules - it's one thing to have a nice chunk of cash, and 20 days straight to shoot - that's a piece of cake compared to doing a feature over the span of a year or two shooting every couple of weekends - I'm really happy that we're nearing the finish line, it's been an amazing journey that I wouldn't trade for anything in the world, but it does take serious dedication, time, planning, resources, the ability to manage relationships, etc. etc., to make a narrative film (especially a feature length one) on a micro-budget - the camera is the last thing I worry about when doing this project, for what it's worth - when we get on set, I'm way more concerned with sound and lights than the camera - the camera is the easy part compared to everything else - writing a good script and finding good actors, rehearsing, and learning to direct is where the work really lies (if you're essentially one-man-showing the project - writing/directing/dp'ing).
 
dvbrother said:
One other reason there may be a lack of GH1 films online is that people are entering them into film festivals and don't want to "spoil" them by having them available online. That's the case with my GH1 short. Many film festivals will not accept your film if it's freely available online. And since GH1 images can look so good, filmmakers like myself who use it feel confident that their films can compete in good festivals. Anyone else here have a finished short that they aren't putting online?
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It's true. I can't put a few of my films online because of the festivals. Good on you guys that are shooting some narratives with GH1s. I'd love to see a list, with links. Is there one?
 
Lucas Adamson said:
It's true. I can't put a few of my films online because of the festivals. Good on you guys that are shooting some narratives with GH1s. I'd love to see a list, with links. Is there one?
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You can find stills on our facebook page and some behind the scenes stuff shot w/GH1/GH13 but we don't have any real scene clips up b/c of the festival guidelines.
 
One of the best posts in a long while. I am so tired of all this shallow depth of field bokeh pr0n pieces. The best movies I have seen recently were all made on strange camera's. MiniDV camera's on special rigs, mounted to bikes, crashcams etc. and I haven't seen many interesting pieces shot on a video DSLR. Everyone does the same trick... glideshots, timelapses and shallow DOF.

Everyone should watch Citizen Kane and see how wonderful depth of field can be. For that reason alone... I am still anticipating the release of Red' Scarlet. 2/3" is perfect and I want a videocamera, not stills.
 
DrDave said:
This is not about the camera. There are many highly skilled ppl in the video business. Some do their own sound, some work on a small budget, some work with the colleagues. They often have and use several different types of cameras. Anyone who can read a wave file does not need a slate--although a slate is handy, of course, and, double system sound is just one way to record sound--anyone with a zoom H2 can record double system sound, it doesn't make it good sound. Quality and skill rating are subjective, as is the choice of video type. I've seen some amazing work on this forum, and, more importantly for me, I have learned a great deal. Pppl record what they think is art, or valuable--the value could be a tiny reflection in a mirror, or a spinning toy to show how to get a better video, or it could be a real movie.
I'm sorry to say this, but referring to one's sister is off-putting. Some of the most talented people I have ever worked with are women, and they often do not participate in forums because of the environment--our loss.
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I think it may in part be about the camera. Double system sound is the only way to get good sound with a GH1 or GH2. I never said double system makes the sound intrinsically good, as that would be ridiculous. I also never meant to infer that women weren't talented by using "sister" instead of "brother" or "nephew" or whatever. Of course women are talented - every bit as talented as men in my experience. Perhaps if the forum was a bit less materialistic and obsessed with "dick-size" comparisons between cameras and pixel peeping anti-art, more women might take part. In fact we need women to contribute to this forum to help transform this sorry state of affairs!
 
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