Inception

[Lammy]

If you take the stance that the entire film is a dream and everyone is parts of Cobb's personality it gives the film a very funny meaning. All those times we are shown different characters doing their own thing outside of Cobb in the scene, seems kind of random and abit pointless.

There's a part of Cobb that dreams he's the guy from 500 Days of Summer and wants to bang Juno.

Cool...

 

[Everts]

But that's how dreams are ...random and pointless, at first !

And if you'd like to bang Juno keep that to yourself

I was just exploring the idea, if its all a dream ! BTW

 

[dust'n the callipygous]

I thought this was very clear in the movie...

The totem only tells you that you're not in someone else's dream, because other people wont know how your totem should act. ie: we don't know what number Arthur's should fall on, we don't know that Adriane's chess piece would sit back up.

It's important to know that the totem wont tell you if you're in your own dream. Because you know what it is supposed to do. Hence why Cobb doesn't want to look at his own kids incase he is wrong and Mal's right. It wont prove anything, it will just tempt him to stay in a false reality.

Yes, it's odd that Mal's totem doesn't seem to have a unique characteristic (we know it falls, or keeps spinning) but that's the whole point- I don't think the audience or Cobb know at all. It might actually have a unique feature like a specific kind of noise when spun. The point is it doesn't matter anyway...

I definitely agree that it only tells you if you're in someone else's dream, however; what I don't get is the fact that he could tell because the object would spin continuously. This is not a normal characteristic of a top. No one, in their dream, would plant a top in it that would continue to spin. Since in the dream world we only know objects as they are in reality, in anyone else's dream the top would act just like a normal top, and fall over when it loses momentum. There is no reason why the top would continue to spin. Sure, like you said, it might make a different sound, because that would be a different characteristic that coincides with reality, but that's not the case here. This isn't a question who's totem is what, and why? but a much more simple question of why did it have dream-characteristics that weren't consistent with everything else. We know the top would continue to spin, and why that is, is what I don't get.

 

[Lammy]

This isn't a question who's totem is what, and why? but a much more simple question of why did it have dream-characteristics that weren't consistent with everything else. We know the top would continue to spin, and why that is, is what I don't get.

Oh I getcha! Yeah how odd. Everyone else would assume the top was normal and would fall over, hence he is in someone else's dream. So if it kept spinning, he isn't in a dream?

So what reality-based logic makes this top spin forever and how? Is it battery operated, Mal? LOL

Yup, another case of Nolan messing with us just to be weird me thinks...

 

[Batutta]

If you take the stance that the entire film is a dream and everyone is parts of Cobb's personality it gives the film a very funny meaning. All those times we are shown different characters doing their own thing outside of Cobb in the scene, seems kind of random and abit pointless.

There's a part of Cobb that dreams he's the guy from 500 Days of Summer and wants to bang Juno.

Cool...

I often have dreams where I'm not a participant, I'm just watching people from the outside. Then, sometimes I'll assume a characters identity for a bit, then drift back out of the scene.

 

[Kholi]

Oh I getcha! Yeah how odd. Everyone else would assume the top was normal and would fall over, hence he is in someone else's dream. So if it kept spinning, he isn't in a dream?

So what reality-based logic makes this top spin forever and how? Is it battery operated, Mal? LOL

Yup, another case of Nolan messing with us just to be weird me thinks...

The confusion lies with the Dreamer: it is the point that if you are in your own dream, the top will continue to spin. Extraction is the ultimate offense, so you need a totem to protect yourself from extraction, etc.

So, in YOUR OWN DREAM your totem would act unordinary. There is no use for a totem in another person's dream, as you already know that you've gone into their dream. Dream sharing for the Architect, etc, is a willing endeavor. Most of the time, for the dreamer, it is not. In Mol's and Cobb's case, they went back and forth within each other's dreams until they reached Limbo. I assume, since Mol created the concept of the totem, that Cobb never had one until he took Mol's. He also says this in the movie.

The totem is specifically to make sure you are not the dreaming victim. Hence why you cannot allow the method to your totem to be discovered by anyone else, or they can fool you into thinking that you're not dreaming or you are not the dreaming victim.

 

[Lammy]

OK, so to re-iterate to everyone that came late:

If the top keeps spinning, it means:

a) He is in his own dream
b) He is in Mal's dream
c) He is in Saito's dream (Saito mysteriously has it at the start/end)
d) He is in reality (Assuming this totem is unique and actually exists)


If the top falls over, it means:

a) He is in someone else's dream
b) He is in reality (Assuming its a plain normal top)


And the kicker is, we will never know because it cuts to credit just as it appears to fall, and again it doesn't matter as the above options show

 

[Kholi]

OK, so to re-iterate to everyone that came late:

If the top keeps spinning, it means:

a) He is in his own dream
b) He is in Mal's dream
c) He is in reality (Assuming this totem is unique and actually exists)

Mol does not exist in this time frame. Mol is Cobb, Cobb is Mol.

Strike C out. If the top keeps spinning, he is in his own dream and someone may be connected to it.

If the top falls over, it means:

a) He is in someone else's dream
b) He is in reality (Assuming its a plain normal top)

Strike A out. If he is in someone else's dream he won't have to worry about the top.

 

[Everts]

ok here's another one:

Mal or Mol locks here Totem in a safe in Limbo ...the unsubconscious space, in theire house on the water in the city they build.
Now where did Cobb get her Totem from ..did he steal it in Limbo or take it at her death/suicide ?

Remember the totem was Mal's idea !

 

[Lammy]

Mol does not exist in this time frame. Mol is Cobb, Cobb is Mol.

Strike C out. If the top keeps spinning, he is in his own dream and someone may be connected to it.

Assuming the entire movie is a dream (I don't think it is), it's possible Cobb is stuck in Mal's dream and each time we see her she isn't actually a projection. Possible, unlikely.

I wouldn't strike C out, sorry I changed it to D now, because I'm assuming that an indefinate spinning top could actually exist...

Strike A out. If he is in someone else's dream he won't have to worry about the top.

But that's the whole point, to know he isnt the target in a person's dream? Right?

ok here's another one:

Mal or Mol locks here Totem in a safe in Limbo ...the unsubconscious space, in theire house on the water in the city they build.
Now where did Cobb get here Totem from ..did he steal it in Limbo or take it at her death/suicide ?

Remember the totem was Mal's idea !

That's why I'm assuming this super spinning indefinate totem existed in reality. So when Mal woke up, for real, it may have been on the table desk. And Mal got really annoyed that it kept falling, because it could be a normal top or it could mean she is in someone else's dream (Cobb's, as he may not know it was supposed to indefinate spin)

 

[Kholi]

But that's the whole point, to know he isnt the target in a person's dream? Right?

There is a literal definition of DREAMER in this movie: it is the person who you are attempting to perform extraction on.

A totem is specifically a safety mechanism of the actual Dreamer, not those who infiltrate the dream.

Cobb cannot be the target of Extraction or Inception in another person's dream. The totem is not important until he is the Dreamer.

Example: When Ariadne sits down with a dreaming Cobb and moves into his dream. Now, the Totem becomes relevant to Cobb. Ariadne's totem is not important.

Example 2: When Cobb is put under deep sleep, awakens with a start, spins his Totem in the bathroom. His totem becomes relevant, as he needs to know that he is not still the Dreamer.

 

[Kholi]

ok here's another one:

Mal or Mol locks here Totem in a safe in Limbo ...the unsubconscious space, in theire house on the water in the city they build.
Now where did Cobb get her Totem from ..did he steal it in Limbo or take it at her death/suicide ?

Remember the totem was Mal's idea !

Cobb performed Extraction on Mol. He located her totem (not spinning) in the Safe and then spun it, closed the safe. There is a missing scene here: Cobb brings Mol back to the Safe to show her that it's still spinning.

This is how he proves her world is not real.

They go to the train tracks and die in the farthest stage of dreaming, limbo, and awaken to the real world.

Mol's totem, in the real world, acted as it should. It stopped spinning. She refused to believe that, however, this was real because Cobb had performed INception on her:

Your world is not real.

The "seed", as it is called, carries over into her waking life and proliferates her psyche until she truly believes that she is still dreaming, and she must die to wake up. After Mol's suicide, Cobb takes the totem from the hotel room floor (real world) and keeps it for himself.

 

[Lammy]

Well that's all well and good but where is it stated in the film that once you're willing to enter someone else's dream your totem is not important? Extraction could still happen any point in anyones dream, hence why alot of theorists reckon Adriane was pulling one on Cobb heh.

Cobb goes into Yuseff's dream into Arthur's dream into Eames's dream into Cobb's dream into limbo or something along those lines.

Why then is it for Cobb to check his totem with Saito and at his kitchen table after all that adventure?

Oh all his totem technicality gives me brain ache!!

 

[Everts]

Kholi do you have the screenplay and synopsis sitting on your lap ?

 

[Kholi]

Kholi do you have the screenplay and synopsis sitting on your lap ?

No. Hahah. I wish.

I understand it very easily, personally, because I studied Lucid Dreaming and sub theories (collective unconsciousness, etc) for two years or so, and still frequently read papers from new age theorists on the subject.

It's quite apparent that Nolan spent a lot of time thinking, writing, thinking some more because every single bit is tied into existing research, not excluding the benefits of sleep and dream therapy.

I sincerely hope the Blu Ray is packed with as much information, deleted scenes, interviews (with both Nolan and Pfister) and more as possible. I'm willing to pay top dollar for it.

 

[Kholi]

Well that's all well and good but where is it stated in the film that once you're willing to enter someone else's dream your totem is not important? Extraction could still happen any point in anyones dream, hence why alot of theorists reckon Adriane was pulling one on Cobb heh.

It's okay to theorize. However, those theories are based on personal emotion and sincerely are rarely ever tied into exactly what is presented. We are given exactly what the story is about, extraneous information is typically coming from ideas that people are forming from misunderstanding certain plot points, devices, characters and even dialog.

Cobb goes into Yuseff's dream into Arthur's dream into Eames's dream into Cobb's dream into limbo or something along those lines.

Correct. You said it exactly right: Cobb CHOOSES to go into Yuseff's dream, Arthur's, Limbo. He doesn't need a totem, he knows he's dreaming. The totem is specifically for after the mission is complete. A safefail for a system that is inherently flawed.

He needs it to make sure that he's not the dreamer, is still not in a dream, etc.

While he's willingly participating in the dream, there's no reason to have it. Once the notion of "not dreaming" is in play, this is when he needs it most. To make sure that he isn't dreaming.

I'm trying to think of a simpler way to explain it.

Why then is it for Cobb to check his totem with Saito and at his kitchen table after all that adventure?

Oh all his totem technicality gives me brain ache!!

At his Kitchen table, in the end, he wants to know that he is not dreaming. Currently not imagining that he is with his kids. It makes sense.

In his hotel room, he spins the top and holds the gun beside his head. Although the direction doesn't fall into the realm of "on the nose" in this specific moment, the gun being close to his skull tells us that he's going to shoot himself if this top doesn't stop spinning. The danger is in that he may still be dreaming, and he is THE dreamer.

When Saito and Cobb meet at the end, when Saito is an old man, Saito spins the top. This is Limbo. In Limbo, the existences that appear are created only by those who have been who share the dream.

Saito does not have a Totem, yet he shares a limbo with Cobb and so Cobbs totem works the same way in a Limbo Space that Cobb originally visited first. The top keeps spinning, it tells Saito that your world is not real.

They ascend together, although in this cut it's ambiguous because you never get to see or hear a single gun shot.

 

[Kholi]

P.S. Lammy - Ariadne technically did pull an Extraction on Cobb. It wasn't in any sneaky way other than attaching herself to the machine.

Cobb's "Safe" however could easily be seen as the Bottom Floor, and it was that simple for Ariadne to find out this information.

IF there was one very deep secret kept in a safe, scrawled across a few sheets of paper tucked inside of a manila envelope, it would be that Cobb performed Inception on his late wife; although this would've added a very interesting layer to the movie, it was never explored.

 

[Everts]

No. Hahah. I wish.

I understand it very easily, personally, because I studied Lucid Dreaming and sub theories (collective unconsciousness, etc) for two years or so, and still frequently read papers from new age theorists on the subject.

It's quite apparent that Nolan spent a lot of time thinking, writing, thinking some more because every single bit is tied into existing research, not excluding the benefits of sleep and dream therapy.

I sincerely hope the Blu Ray is packed with as much information, deleted scenes, interviews (with both Nolan and Pfister) and more as possible. I'm willing to pay top dollar for it.

good that explains alot...
Kholi this is just one those movies, what if this movie help us unlock our own
dreamstate.....that dreams are real as real as our breathing while dreaming.

Is CN telling us we are dreaming ....and is your red one mx your Totem...how does it behave under low light Kholi ?

 

[Kholi]

I can't tell you... it would defeat the purpose of the totem.

 

[Ian-T]

......ya'll need a hobby or something....