Image quality (resolution & color) of HMC150 vs Canon 7D?

Jaime Valles

Jaime Valles

Veteran
Hello, all! I'm writing this to get a sense of which camera (HMC150 or Canon 7D) would work best for an upcoming narrative film project I'm working on. I'm aware of the differences in price and size between these two models, as well as the depth of field differences between the three 1/3" CCDs and the one APS-C CMOS sensor. Having super-shallow depth of field is not something I'm interested in for this project, so either camera would work well for me.

The main question I have is about image quality: resolution & detail, dynamic range, and the ability to push the image when color grading.

Both cameras shoot 4:2:0, so they're pretty much even. The aliasing of the 7D scares me. The low light of the 7D is great, but is it much better than the 150? I guess it depends on the lens used.

How much can one push HMC150 footage in color correction before it breaks down? I understand that the 7D can't handle much color correction before the footage compression rears its ugly head.

When shooting 1080/24p, which camera do you think would have greater resolution when aimed at a scene with lots of detail & texture?

I know both cameras are very different tools at very different price points, with very different features and strengths. I want to focus this thread on pure image quality, resolution, dynamic range, and the ability to color grade.

Thoughts? :dankk2:

PS- Why can't I post attachments? On the posting rules at the bottom it says: You may not post attachments. How come?
 
I would say the 7d hands down due to the fact it holds the bigger and true 1080p sensor. Also you have options where better lenses are concerned vs. the fixed lens on the hmc150. Also keep in mind that for narrative work you gain the option to choose depth of feild on the 7d vs putting on the cumbersome 35mm adapter on the hmc 150, further degrading the image and sucking up extra light.
 
jrv3034 said:
The main question I have is about image quality: resolution & detail
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If the 7D is anything like the GH1, it should handily outperform the HMC150 in terms of measured resolution and detail.

dynamic range
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Don't know yet, we'll have to try them both side by side. I hope to be able to do that soon.

and the ability to push the image when color grading.
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Both are using 4:2:0 8-bit AVC encoding. The HMC150's image will likely prove to be more robust with no aliasing, so I would wager that you can get away with more manipulation in post from the HMC150's footage.

When shooting 1080/24p, which camera do you think would have greater resolution when aimed at a scene with lots of detail & texture?
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The 7D probably. Depends. I did a lot of side-by-sides between the HMC150 and the GH1, and the GH1 usually was significantly superior in terms of detail, but there were certain things that it just didn't handle as well, such as darker foliage in trees (the stuff in the light was super-sharp and way better, but the darker/shadier stuff was nowhere near as good as how the HMC150 handled it) and things like a cobblestone walkway looked a lot sharper on the HMC150 than on the GH1. I presume the 7D will perform similarly but that remains to be seen.
 
reem12 said:
I would say the 7d hands down due to the fact it holds the bigger and true 1080p sensor.
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Yes, but if I'm not mistaken, it uses line skipping to achieve 1080 resolution, which is what leads to the aliasing/stairstepping issues. Then again, the HMC150 is pixel shifted to get to 1080. Hmm...

Also you have options where better lenses are concerned vs. the fixed lens on the hmc150.
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Yeah, this is probably the biggest advantage of the 7D.

Also keep in mind that for narrative work you gain the option to choose depth of feild on the 7d vs putting on the cumbersome 35mm adapter on the hmc 150, further degrading the image and sucking up extra light.
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Oh, I wouldn't dream of thowing a DoF adapter on the HMC150. It's either the naked lens on the 150, or the 7D. However, I'm worrying about focusing on the 7D due to the shallow depth of field. This project will require me shooting without a focus puller, and I fear the 7D may be too hard to focus for one person. How easy is it to get DEEP depth of field on the 7D? How much would I have to stop down the lens to match the DoF of a 1/3" camera?

Thanks for the suggestions!
 
I think the HMC150 would be a lot simpler to use, and likely edit as well. The 7D is quite nice, saw it demo'd at WEVA....FWIW, many there seemed to like it over the 5D MKII. But its still a DSLR, and seems to require a lot more technique in using it, as well as needing rather specialized equipment to support it correctly in order to achieve the best image quality. It should be way better in low light than most video cams out there including from what I saw, the EX-1. If low light is important it likely the best way to go.
 
Barry_Green said:
If the 7D is anything like the GH1, it should handily outperform the HMC150 in terms of measured resolution and detail.


Don't know yet, we'll have to try them both side by side. I hope to be able to do that soon.


Both are using 4:2:0 8-bit AVC encoding. The HMC150's image will likely prove to be more robust with no aliasing, so I would wager that you can get away with more manipulation in post from the HMC150's footage.


The 7D probably. Depends. I did a lot of side-by-sides between the HMC150 and the GH1, and the GH1 usually was significantly superior in terms of detail, but there were certain things that it just didn't handle as well, such as darker foliage in trees (the stuff in the light was super-sharp and way better, but the darker/shadier stuff was nowhere near as good as how the HMC150 handled it) and things like a cobblestone walkway looked a lot sharper on the HMC150 than on the GH1. I presume the 7D will perform similarly but that remains to be seen.
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All great points, Barry. The HMC150 has the form factor, controls and usability I expect from a camera, and the 7D is a stills camera with a video mode slapped on, albeit a very good one for the price. I think I'll have to wait and see some real world test with the two to better compare.

Thanks again.
 
sewolla said:
I think the HMC150 would be a lot simpler to use, and likely edit as well. The 7D is quite nice, saw it demo'd at WEVA....FWIW, many there seemed to like it over the 5D MKII. But its still a DSLR, and seems to require a lot more technique in using it, as well as needing rather specialized equipment to support it correctly in order to achieve the best image quality. It should be way better in low light than most video cams out there including from what I saw, the EX-1. If low light is important it likely the best way to go.
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Yes, low light is a big plus, however this would be used in controlled situations for narrative film, so lighting equipment will be available.

The usability you mention is a big factor, but I'd be willing to put up with the 7D's DSLR ergonomics if the video it produced was significantly better than the HMC. It remains to be seen how the dynamic range compare between the two.

Thanks.
 
Don't neglect audio - unless you are using a Nagra or other off camera recording, the 150 and it's XLR connections will support better audio than just about any DSLR.

Jerry
 
The 7D's other big "plus" is in the way and extent to which you can control depth of field. As previously mnetioned the ability to use such a wide array of pro lenses is at least on paper, quite an advantage. If you need that control, and it may be truly useful for what you are doing, the 7D is an easy choice.
Based on your comments here I would just go to your favorite camera store and place an order for a 7D.
 
The topic of this thread is image quality? There are a more aspects to take into consideration when choosing between these cameras...

I use a HMC and T1i and probably going to upgrade the T1i to the 7D. The image quality of a vSLR will most likely out shine the HMC only due to the fact that you can buy a $1800 lens for the vSLR but the same would be VERY expensive for a video camera.

It is all going to come down to your needs... If you just need snazzy eye candy a vSLR is the way to go... You can get amazing DOF, low ligh performance and all around great video. On the downside, you loose audio capabilities (for the most part) and are always having issues with jello from the cmos sensor (if the camera is moving). And finally shooting manual focus (no auto focus in video mode) really gets old if you have to do it for hours on end.

The HMC is a different animal... If you need a VIDEO CAMERA the hmc is the way to go. You get all the functions you need run and gun right at your finger tips. Capturing audio is very important in video I take, so a vslr just wouldn't cut it. I can shoot 3 HMC's, sync the timecode, match all the settings and know I am getting great video that will all look the same in post...

In conclusion - to cover all the bases we use both, eye candy on the T1i and normal video on the HMC. I could live without the T1i but would never be able to do my job without the HMC.

Anyone want to see t1i vs hmc screenshots?
 
Where do people keep getting the idea that low light on the current DSLRs is great?

It's total nonsense.

The DSLR low light is good if you have a F2.8 or faster lens and it's wide open. But then you have a 6" DOF with usable brightness. When you close down a DSLR aperture to a wide DOF stop like F8, it's awful in low light. I just don't see how you can shoot a DSLR on a feature without using another camera for the full DOF shots in low light.
 
jeff9329 said:
Where do people keep getting the idea that low light on the current DSLRs is great?

It's total nonsense.

The DSLR low light is good if you have a F2.8 or faster lens and it's wide open. But then you have a 6" DOF with usable brightness. When you close down a DSLR aperture to a wide DOF stop like F8, it's awful in low light. I just don't see how you can shoot a DSLR on a feature without using another camera for the full DOF shots in low light.
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Because I have used them side by side?

I didn't mention cheap lenses... And, I believe a 2.8 is more light then the hmc will allow... the 6" dof is what you are going for in a vSLR (otherwise use a hmc). Also prime lenses are great in low light and have nice dof... You can get into 1.8, 1.4 or even 1.2 with primes.


In the mean time - I will get some stills up today...
 
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Here is 2 pics from sort of the same angle - You can tell the color difference, the t1i was not white balanced and the hmc is on the 3.2k preset. Both shooting 720/30p.

T1i: 50mm 1.8 Prime - Auto WB - 800iso

tut_t1i.jpg



HMC150: 3.2k wb - open iris

tut_hmc.jpg
 
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agree. the T1 frame grab looks like a still. great saturation, slight dof, and sharp.
the hmc frame looks like....video.

its like watching a polished hollywood feature vs a rough no-budget documentary.
 
I wish folks would do more comparisons like this with the DSLRs vs Camcorders. I’ve seen some and from what I see so far is that even with the DSLR’s lack in resolving detail vs a camcorder they still produce a much denser image with what they do resolve.

…or is it just me?
 
i think you're onto something ian-t.

after seeing so much of these comparisons, i think i'm starting to see a pattern.
i'm guessing that the dslrs produce some amazing images almost right out of the box, while the hmc150 takes quite a bit of tweaking and configuring to get an equivalently beautiful image.
and that in most folks tests they're not putting as much effort into perfecting the image on the hmc.

i've had my hmc for almost a year now and am only recently happy with the super clean and rich images i'm finally able to pull with it.
 
Blackout said:
wow the first image destroys the second
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This is really not a fair comparison, as it looks like no effort was made to try to get the two cameras to match.

VDSLR : Short telephoto shot, much higher contrast, much warmer color balance. You could match all of this with the HMC150, but with a deeper DOF.

HMC150 : Wide angle shot, much lower contrast, cooler and probably more accurate color balance. You could also match all of this with the VDSLR, but I suspect the low contrast match would be tough.
 
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