GH2 I need the GH2 to do EVERYTHING - Am I crazy?

N

Nathan Troutman

Active member
I'm spearheading the creation of a brand new video production program to introduce video production to local high school students through evening/summer classes & projects. Largerly due to price, I'm thinking about selecting the GH2 as the camera I'm planning to buy.

However this choice presents several problems/questions in my mind that I'd like some opinions on.

1. While the main goal will be to do a lot of things that I think the GH2 will be great for as student projects - music videos, documentaries, interviews, spec commercials, short films & general "set-up" type projects, but the not-for-profit group I'm working with also puts-up a full-stage musical every year and other "live" performances. They naturally want to be able to shoot these shows. Here the GH2 concerns me. I can afford to buy 2 GH2s but dealing with the non-camcorder form-factor and zoom lens selection (or lack of) make me nervous about being able to shoot "live" events with a GH2. Any suggestions or experiences to make me feel better about using a GH2 for something "live"? And there's no more money than about $900 per body. For zoom lenses I'd either borrow Nikon zooms or have to purchase very cheap old manual glass.

2. I think some would think I would be crazy to introduce video to complete novices on a platform like the GH2. Meaning managing the work on a GH2 rather than an easier & more automatic basic little camcorder. However, I think there is something to be gained from learning to work with focus, lens selection, manual operation & this makes the GH2 a great way to start a foundation of knowledge. What do you think, am I expecting too much and should just opt for an "easier" camcorder that would also probably be an "easier" choice to shoot the live shows with as well?
 
Hi. I disagree with your choice of a GH2 to High School Students for a number of reasons. The most conspicuous is that of '
Attention' . High School Students have been proven to be rather short on attention and yet very hot in pursuit of action. They are at the stage when introspection, story telling, sharing and team building collide in the first steps to wards adulthood.
Though a technically savvy lot, they'd probably rather use a point and shoot that get bogged down on complex intricacies of arcane photographic paraphernalia.
I highly recommend picking up a half dozen Flip Mino HD or Ultra HD cameras off ebay and let them loose. The constraints of this simple tool will be good discipline for them in film making, and yet the simplicity will allow them to focus on high production value stuff like script writing, storyboarding, sound and lighting. I use my flips constantly for roughs, personal documentary out of my pocket etc. 720P with the Mino HD 120 is perfectly fine for high school!
Gotta run! My Pub Lunch Vimeo upload is done :)
 
I agree with zeph, for 900.00 each, I would look for a used camcorder, I think your gonna benefit from a better build quality, easier platform, and something with xlr audio ins. just my opinion. Why not look for a used hvx, or xha1. Both great cams, and easy to use.
 
Another problem I see is that HDSLR cameras, while awesome, are not a good introduction to the world of filmmaking. You need something that functions more like a traditional video system.
 
Nathan, I am going to have to respectfully disagree with the majority. If your budget is $1800 for two cameras, I think you should get one $780 GH2, a $150 Tascam DR-40 recorder w XLR inputsand a $900 (I'm prejudiced towards the Panasonic TM900 as the best bang for the buck). Out there in today's video world, shooters need to know both ISO and dB gain. They need to know what a small chip camcorder can/cannot do - and what a large sensor DSLR form-factor camera can/cannot do. With access to both, your students will learn to pick the right tool for the job in a way that DSLR-only or camcorder-only courses cannot teach. And when it comes time to record your not-for-profit's stage shows, you'll have a camcorder for the master shot and the GH2 for B roll and pickups (or vice versa - the GH2 will run until your card memory runs out with a $20 AC adapter.

If I were hiring one of your students, I'd want them to have experience with both form-factors.

Good luck with your decision,

Bill
 
No, you should find some old B&W TV cameras and hook them up to 1/2 video tape recorders - LOL

These kids today are so spoiled!! Wish I had a GH2 - 35 years ago.....

What ever these kids learn on today - will change for the better in quantum leaps....

Don't worry about the equipment - work on the techniques.

A GH2 can record bad acting just as well as an EPIC.....
 
brunerww said:
Nathan, I am going to have to respectfully disagree with the majority. If your budget is $1800 for two cameras, I think you should get one $780 GH2, a $150 Tascam DR-40 recorder w XLR inputs and a $900 camcorder (I'm prejudiced towards the Panasonic TM900 as the best bang for the buck). Out there in today's video world, shooters need to know both ISO and dB gain. They need to know what a small chip camcorder can/cannot do - and what a large sensor DSLR form-factor camera can/cannot do. With access to both, your students will learn to pick the right tool for the job in a way that DSLR-only or camcorder-only courses cannot teach. And when it comes time to record your not-for-profit's stage shows, you'll have a camcorder for the master shot and the GH2 for B roll and pickups (or vice versa - the GH2 will run until your card memory runs out with a $20 AC adapter).

If I were hiring one of your students, I'd want them to have experience with both form-factors.

Good luck with your decision,

Bill
Click to expand...

This.

I like the idea of teaching the differences of both.
 
Zephyrnoid said:
Hi. I disagree with your choice of a GH2 to High School Students for a number of reasons. The most conspicuous is that of '
Attention' . High School Students have been proven to be rather short on attention and yet very hot in pursuit of action. They are at the stage when introspection, story telling, sharing and team building collide in the first steps to wards adulthood.
Though a technically savvy lot, they'd probably rather use a point and shoot that get bogged down on complex intricacies of arcane photographic paraphernalia.
I highly recommend picking up a half dozen Flip Mino HD or Ultra HD cameras off ebay and let them loose. The constraints of this simple tool will be good discipline for them in film making, and yet the simplicity will allow them to focus on high production value stuff like script writing, storyboarding, sound and lighting. I use my flips constantly for roughs, personal documentary out of my pocket etc. 720P with the Mino HD 120 is perfectly fine for high school!
Gotta run! My Pub Lunch Vimeo upload is done :)
Click to expand...

I have to completely disagree with this notion. One of the key reasons why kids these days have short attention spans is because of the prevalence of equipment that doesn't require any attention at all to operate (e.g. Flip cams, cameraphones, etc.).

I've taught production to high-school students and the ones that are interested in it will absolutely appreciate the opportunity to learn how to use equipment that they can't get at Walmart and the like. These are the students that you should be selecting equipment for as they are the ones that will enthusiastically dive into it.

As for getting a camera that can do everything, no the GH2 is not it, but then again, NO camera under $1K (or even $3K) will do it all. The large sensor and interchangeable lenses of the GH2 or a DSLR will provide you with creative control that a standard video camera won't. A small video camera with built in 10x zoom will have (mostly) smooth zooms, but you sacrifice a lot of control over the image that you capture.

You can sure shoot a live production with a GH2, and in many ways, it is much better than any similar DSLR (Canon, Nikon, etc.) for this task because you won't have common limitations of these types of cameras (12 minute clip length, etc.). A minimum of 3 cameras would be ideal, so that you can get 3 different angles of the action on the stage, and set the cameras up on tripods at varied distances from the stage. Shoot, sync cameras, and edit as a multi-cam production. Good learning experience for the students. Not everyone wants to be a Spielberg-- some love ENG or live-to-tape productions.
 
One more vote for buying both the GH2 and TM900 cameras, and teach your students the pros and cons of each format.
 
At the high-school level, and depending on the depth you want to cover within your film course. I think techniques hold more weight: story writing, lighting, audio, DOP, then... Production positions/jobs and camera skills.
Sure, having the 2 main formates (Cam and HDSLR) around is good for examples and learning some of the basics, are great... but really not the best to introduce at a "beginner's level", off the bat.
Keep in mind, once you introduce these technical elements, you need to deal with the post workflow... and that calls for more equipment and tech to teach/buy.

My advice:
Approach this like you would a photography course.
Most of the time, students start off with making pinhole cameras and studying trendsetters and what made them that way.
Not until almost half way through the course, do they start to learn the ins and outs of their Manual cameras.
So... probably a few GH2s would be great for end of course projects, but i think its best if you can get the basics into as many hands as possible before jumping into the advance. I learned with a Panasonic AG DVX-100, and that still remains a factor for my skills today. (I see them for as little as $349) http://www.google.com/products/cata...=X&ei=qv-oT4DIDoSQ-waX5YGuAg&ved=0CKUFEPMCMAE
Im not suggesting this specific camera... but look for something easy, but with good manual controls and cheap... just get them filming really. (iPhones/Small point and shoots/FlipCams/etc...)
 
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Do the high school kids need HD? you can get DVX100's for pretty cheap and they can learn all the functions, framing, lighting on that. Have them shoot 16:9 on it. The DVX has a lot of functionality of the bigger cameras as far as all the buttons and would help them learn more than using a DSLR which I don't think will be as prevalent in 5 years when they get out in the real world. You dont have to use the DVX obviously but pick a camera that will teach them how to use any camera. The GH2 is not it.
 
I think that a lot of very helpful ways of looking at this have been presented already, but since mine overlaps many while still differing, I will present it as well.

Years from now, your students or their families will want to look back at their early work. No matter what they shoot with, they may very well have put in just as much time, energy and emotion to get the results they want and they will feel invested in the product.

When I used to look back in the early 1990s at performances shot with Hi8 camcorders, I already knew that they were falling far short of what they could have been with different equipment, even though it was the best I had ever used at that point in time. Whatever you teach your students to shoot with should be one of the best cameras "for what it is" and what it is should be suited to what they are doing. And it should be the best image quality available for the price (and that includes HD resolution at the moment).

Using the GH2 presents certain workflow considerations that may be difficult and it might be effective to have 1 camera that uses a servo zoom and more tradtional camcorder as well. But the great thing about having the majority of the cameras for the class being GH2s is the combination of the image quality, versatility and flexibilty of the cameras they would be using.

There are more features being shot with interchangeable lens cameras (whether DSLR or digital cinema or film) than with fixed lens camcorders at this moment in time. If your students learn to shoot with a GH2, the overwhelming majority of the technical (not just creative) skills they learn will be transferable to a professional production environment in a way that exceeds what would be the case with a camcorder or Flip.

If I were a high school student in your class, I would be glad I learned on a GH2.
 
I say go with the GH2 or if you can find an even cheaper pair of GH1s.

When I took high school photography I learned a lot about cameras. We used 35mm mechanical SLR's back then. Learning about focal length, aperture, film speed and shutter speed prepared me for work in motion picture film. Those same principles apply even more to digital production today than they did when I started working with video because of DSLRs and digital cinema cameras today.

Teaching them the technical side does not mean you neglect the production side of things. But maybe what you should do is split the group into their own self interests. Identify who wants to work behind the camera, who wants to direct, who wants to produce, who wants to edit, who wants to write and so on. Teach them all their piece of the pie and how they can work together as a team to produce projects.

Don't get hung up on powered zooms. Very rarely do I use a powered zoom during live events. Most of my constant slow zoom stuff is used for b-roll. But that's me.
 
Thanks to everyone for all of the great responses - pro & con. I'm truly in the middle of this debate myself which is why I posted this.

I agree that these kids are spoiled with the equipment that's available now compared to even just 10 years ago. It's a great time to start young and be learning in this field.

These forums are a great resource - even when it gets heated sometimes! So much free knowledge - thanks everyone for you expert thoughts.

I like the idea of getting an affordable video camera like the Panasonic (not sure why that didn't occur to me) to go along with a GH2. I also agree in teaching this I want to expose students to both styles of production - ENG and film. What little video is taught in high schools is invariably ENG style. In my area there's nothing at all.

I know plenty of wedding guys are shooting live on the HDSLRs. But in an ENG/live setting I still prefer the built in XLR, monitoring, IS, powered zoom & yes (dare I say it) automatic focus and exposure (at times) not to mention an ND filter wheel.

The 1st goal for our program is simply to provide kids access to discovering this field of work - film, tv, eng and/or independent production & to see if maybe this might be a field they might want to pursue. 2nd, if we're able to develop this enough I'd like to have some kids skilled enough that they would be able to work for some of you guys as a second shooter or assistant. That’s where the technique will come in.

As to approach - which some people have also offered suggestions - I see the value of starting with concept or basics however, one of the attractions of this field and work is that it's an ACTIVE life and NOT a job behind a desk. I'd like to provide an outlet for the student who finds the classroom boring. I also strongly believe in learning by doing in this field & even by doing it WRONG. My first classes will involve immediate PRODUCTION. I want them to tackle a basic project on their own, with their own ideas, even if they are all wrong. Then we'll sit down and talk about how to do it better & we’ll learn as we’re actively trying to create something.

I think the most important skill in life is your ability to use your current knowledge to create new skills, techniques & ideas to overcome the variety of situations you will encounter. The smart scientists of NASA were able to take a pile of junk and turn it into a CO2 scrubber to save Apollo 13 – and this skill is something we do a terrible job at teaching our students. We pontificate to them & then ask them to puke the answers back to us on a test.
 
Per Lichtman said:
I
There are more features being shot with interchangeable lens cameras (whether DSLR or digital cinema or film) than with fixed lens camcorders at this moment in time. If your students learn to shoot with a GH2, the overwhelming majority of the technical (not just creative) skills they learn will be transferable to a professional production environment in a way that exceeds what would be the case with a camcorder or Flip.

If I were a high school student in your class, I would be glad I learned on a GH2.
Click to expand...

This was exactly my line of thought. Even if it is harder & more demanding but to start with a tool that will teach a broad array of skills that could easily transfer in whatever direction that student might take. Also helps that when they shoot something well that it's going to look pretty professional to boot.

BTW - I will have either a 2k or (hopefully) 4k D-cinema movie theater projection system at our disposal to show final projects. The group I'm working with has received funding to renovate an old movie theater completely updating it to full digital projection and sound. When I heard about the project I had to get involved. A live theater group running a movie theater - now you have to have a video production department!
 
Best of luck to you Nathan, it sounds like you are (from my perspective) on the right track. :)

EDIT: Great to hear about the theater!
 
Hectorxd said:
Do the high school kids need HD? you can get DVX100's for pretty cheap and they can learn all the functions, framing, lighting on that. Have them shoot 16:9 on it. The DVX has a lot of functionality of the bigger cameras as far as all the buttons and would help them learn more than using a DSLR which I don't think will be as prevalent in 5 years when they get out in the real world. You dont have to use the DVX obviously but pick a camera that will teach them how to use any camera. The GH2 is not it.
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I can see the value to this approach but I'd have to try and find something that's 1080. I've got to be able to use this gear to shoot a 3 camera live musical. Having one camera stuck in SD is an issue. Any ideas on what might be out there used that is prosumer & HD? I think one person recommended the Canon XHA1. Any other ideas because a $900 per unit price limit is pretty tough. Maybe a Sony FX7?
 
Yes. If the budget allows it, yes.

In high school (20 years ago, granted), we had a photography class (as part of vis arts) where we made our own camera obscura, reloaded our own 35mm film canisters, developed film and prints, enlarged, retouched, fiddled with simple prime-lensed SLR's, and generally did "hard" things. Happily.

There's no reason to punish kids with low expectations.
 
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