Eric Coughlin
Veteran
No worries, man. Family was a lot of work, changing diapers, not having freedom, etc. I don't cry myself to sleep every night about the loss.
C100: I need a New Look for 2017. What's your fave interview lens besides the 70-200?
- Thread starter nedcam
- Start date
David W. Jones
Veteran
So your own internal media department, the folks who actually know this stuff and what it costs said "it will cost this much and take this much time to do it right" but you said, I'll do it if you rent some gear. And they went along with it, knowing they will still be paying the media departments salary for sitting on their asses and not doing the project? You would think they would know better being a financial services business. Please remind me not to use them to manage my retirement fund.
Eric Coughlin
Veteran
I assume they had other projects they could be doing for budgets within the company that could be afforded by other departments, otherwise their prices wouldn't have been so high.
craftyphotons
Active member
I don't think the media department actually has any shortage of work for themselves with us being such a large company. I really want to apologize though, my post was meant to be more of a portrayal of my enthusiasm for starting my journey into filmmaking, not to disparage the work that real professionals like you all do. The last thing I want to do is take away work from anyone. I'll stop hijacking this thread now with my excuses, please accept that I do have a lot of respect for this as a profession though and hopefully someday I can still count myself among the real filmmakers out there.
puredrifting
Major Contributor
And that my friends is why you can't find work.
It's interesting, I have been doing this long enough to have seen that internal media departments/staff versus contracting everything out is completely cyclical and typically changes during upper management regime changes. I came into a Fortune 200 Biotech company in 1998. They had a sound stage, insert stage, photography studio, three AVID bays, an exec producer and two staff producers. Their work was abysmally bad, not even barely competent or creative. I managed to get my foot in the door with my company and three years later, they had shifted from all internal production to 95% of their production being done by my company. My company made a LOT of money there and business was good for about three years. Then there was a regime change and a marketing manager decided he didn't like me personally, tried to cheat my company out of $15k that his department owed be, told me he was going to cheat me out of the money to my face and proceeded to blackball me and sabotage all work I was producing for the organization. Then 9/11 happened and the entire business changed and my company was unceremoniously booted from working there.
FF 15 years, I just picked up another Fortune 200 client, a healthcare provider. The infrastructure is similar to the biotech, they have an insert stage, a few edit bays, a few in-house producers. The difference is, the work they have been producing is actually pretty good quality. Their lead in house producer went to film school and actually knows what he is doing so he hires people who know what they are doing. This organization is transitioning from trying to do everything in-house to a nice 50/50 split with some projects being produced in house while others will be farmed out to production companies like mine. I've shot at large organizations where they MAKE every internal client ONLY shoot projects with their in-house facilities and staff and I have seen others fire the entire team, sell off all of the gear and only contract video. It ebbs and flows. Then the next manager comes in a decides they want to build up an internal media department "to save money". And so the cycle goes.
The situation that Crafty describes above I have seen a lot more at ad agencies and marketing firms more than at large corporations but anything is possible. The "Hey, Bob in marketing has a camera and iMovie, he'll do our video for free" factor. In the age of social media where 90% of everything on YouTube is very poorly done from a technical and aesthetic viewpoint, a lot of corporate communications don't need to look and sound good, be well written, produced, shot and edited competently. This is tough for us professionals to accept but a lot of people, especially at corporations, are not discerning and "good enough" is good enough. If they get it free, fast and it gets a Monkey off of their back, they can check the box on their to do list that says, "Make a video about this new directive", than they are satisfied. They usually don't have $10k to $50k it would take to hire a produciton company to make their video professionally so they make do with an amateur effort. And that's okay, it's not good or bad in the grand scheme of things. Bad for us, but for the corporation, just depends on what their priorities are.
The other factor that nobody has addressed yet that I used to run into a lot was the glass ceiling. The biotech company that I described above produced a pretty decent amount of broadcast commercial work. Much of the work, objectively, was mediocre and the agency team, IMHO, just didn't get what the client did, what their image should have been, etc. I tried for years to get a foothold in Marketing there so that we could produce the organizations broadcast spots. But my company was a production company, not an ad or marketing agency. This biotech company had so much money at the time that they had hired TEN DIFFERENT AD AGENCIES! Not consolidate and have perhaps two or three. Each product group had hired their own ad agency and we are talking Grey, Chiat Day, etc. big, hyper expensive NY agencies. Of course, these big agencies were all about status and name so they were hiring guys like Joe Pytka, Tarsem, etc. to shoot the spots. Of course, the spots were shot well but still conceptually flawed and weak. The results from the focus groups, etc. were not good. And they were spending tens of millions of dollars, Superbowl spots, high saturation campaigns. My take away was, the reason Fortune 200s hire huge ad agencies isn't so they will be successful with their marketing and advertisement. It is so when they are NOT successful, it covers their ass when the executives of the organization want someone's head on a platter. Hiring these agencies gives the account people in Marketing plausible deniability. "We hired the biggest, most prestigious agency for the campaign. They hired the best, most well respected director and crew and executed at a very high level. It's not our fault the campaign isn't resulting in clear, tangible sales of the product." So in producing coroporate work, I learned, at least at the time, the ceiling I reached for single project budget was about $250k. The agencies were getting budgets, just for the spots, not the creative for the campaign or the media buys, that were in the millions to tens of millions of dollars. There was nothing we could do, even through we understood the client's brand better than the big fancy agencies, simply because choosing us would NOT have given the marketing people plausible deniability. And of course, we were not in the uppoer echelons of commerical spot work at the time so that eliminated us from contention although we did work with them on several high concept, relatively high budget trade show pieces for video walls that were a blast to produce. If you are ever offer a few hundred grand to work on a :60-2:00 trade show video wall, it can be pretty fun.
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100% correct. This is true of any business and why lower tier players can't play in the upper tiers of business.
Eric Coughlin
Veteran
Well in the low end you have young guys with DSLRs working for cheap, then in the midrange you have us (C-series type users) with basic equipment packages for support, and in the high end you have Arri Alexas with large crews and lots of support gear. There will always be a market for each segment, as there will always be clients with low budgets, mid-range budgets, and high end budgets.
I don't think you can argue that there isn't a noticeable difference between the low end and the mid end. For the clients that don't care about that difference, then they should hire the low end. Then it is silly if the mid range people complain when low end clients decide not to hire them. Let each person get the clients of their intended market and be happy with that. To each their own.
I don't think you can argue that there isn't a noticeable difference between the low end and the mid end. For the clients that don't care about that difference, then they should hire the low end. Then it is silly if the mid range people complain when low end clients decide not to hire them. Let each person get the clients of their intended market and be happy with that. To each their own.
David W. Jones
Veteran
I tend to judge low, mid and high tier projects by budget rather then camera used.
Eric Coughlin
Veteran
Camera is often an indication of budget, hence why I used it as a generalization. You typically don't see an Alexa on a low budget (say $500) paid shoot, and don't typically see a 5D as A-cam on a 30 million dollar movie. Sure there are rare exceptions like Act of Valor, but that's far from the norm, hence the generalization.
How often do high end broadcast ads hire small companies?
nedcam
Well-known member
Well Crafty, it's not your fault, I've seen it a million times in the last say, ten or so years. You wrote:
"I'm employed as a software/devops engineer at a very large organization. When we had an internal video project come up... I volunteered to do the video."
My theory is that these IT fellows want to do something creative after looking at code for years. I can't blame them for wanting to do the videos, makes them a value added worker, but this trend is another reason I'm dropping out a few years earlier than planned. Every organization now has IT and software folks on staff and it's that side of their brain being powerful (right side?) that gives them the ability to easily figure out how to "run" a video camera. Fortunately for us they suck at lighting, which has to be taught, and they often screw up the audio, but many times I have contacted a prospect and was told they are now "doing it in-house". Or I should say, their videos for internal usage are DIY because they only care if the content was understood, rather than it looking pro. My experience is that anything for employees only, they will throw less budget at it. I do a lot of HR work that is for recruitment, especially of recent graduates. When we're finished and the clients are happy with my work (I get them to give me a referral on LinkedIn), I then ask if there's any internal HR videos I can do for them and now, in 2017, invariably they will say they are DIY. As has been discussed previously, the B2C large companies in my area, like Kraft Heinz, now do it DIY with their bloggers and media savvy Millennials because they actually WANT it to look DIY by the viewing consumers. But for a Board of Directors or Investors Relations meetings video, that's where I will be brought in, but my slice of the pie has gotten thinner because there are now so many competitors that are similar to me, thus bringing rates down. Actual bidding wars. Prospects asking me to match the lower price of a competitor, as if I'm selling tires. And the younger prospects are now using apps, my theory is out of laziness, to post video shoots and see the masses bid as low as possible. It seems every year we pros get older, there are now more (younger) competitors just from the fact that another year went by, right? And you can be Fat 'n Happy now, busy as Hell, but the problem with a project oriented small business is: You Never Know When It Will Get Dead Slow. I tried to never let my ego get in the way of saving.
Stand by for tomorrow's Super Bowl ads, some will, I bet, be vertical. In fact, if anyone wants to contact me off line and wager, that'd be fun! There will be ads that are purposefully made to look as UGC (User Generated Content) even if shot by us pros, or maybe they gathered footage from consumers?
As to Puredrifting saying the big medical companies only use their agencies, I am, and never have been, of the high stylish level to pursue their broadcast ad work, I could if they want a doc look, but from what I know, they only use these giant agencies because so much consumer research is involved. Perhaps also because of the air time buys. There are many millions and perhaps billions at stake. They aren't selling low price point retail items as are most TV advertisers.
I have spent a lifetime schmoozing with the producers of in-house Fortune 100 media departments, but it's like a dating arc: Meet, Infatuation, Hot & Heavy, Complacency, Arguing, Break Up. Also, many wanted me to use their gear to amortize the cost of their equipment, so I turn those down. As to the example Crafty gave, I have seen in-house media departments purposely over bid a department's request for a video because they did not want to do it or were too busy. It's what they call a charge back system, funny money, a switching of funds from one department's budget to another. There is also an arc as to a company creating their own in-house department and then getting rid of it, usually when a recession hits.
And that's how I got my $8000 Sachtler for free! I was filming in the late 80s in a corporation and they said they wanted to do a BTS of me and my crew. I asked them how they could do that if we only have my one working camera and the client said, "We used to have our own video department but we recently fired everybody and have a room full of gear we will be selling, so we'll use that stuff." So, imagine telling a guy like me that, I asked to see the stuff after we wrapped and there were two Sachtlers and I was at the time using wooden legs with an Oconnor 50, (to you young guys that would look like George Washington's surveying gear) and I told him I will immediately bring cash tomorrow for these two items. He said, "We plan on having an auction, I don't want you to cherry pick the best stuff." So, we came to a confidential agreement that I would trade two days of shooting for the two Sachtlers! But the moral of my, and Puredrifting's stories, is that these in-house departments come and go, but when they are in use they are NOT a good thing for us freelancers. Often, with a monster size client like an Allstate here, an in-house producer goes freelance and they farm out everything to him or her because they know the players, politics, etc.
Oh, one last thing, reminds me, Puredrifting talking about large agencies: I'M DONE WITH THEM! The US's largest ad agency hired me for an emergency project, shooting only, late 2015 to mid 2016, going around the country interviewing CEOs. Easy. Problem was, the checks for the enormous travel reimbursements never came. They had a paperwork system where they wanted to wait until the last invoice came in. Got into the $14-16K range not including my labor, and I would complain and complain but the clients I was dealing with could be of no help due to The Black Hole. What is The Black Hole you ask? I'm glad you asked that. It is now where our invoices go, when we work for extremely large companies, because after this last recession they fired their accounting personnel and outsourced their "back office", what we would call accounts payable, to Mumbai, India! I swear. Google it. Same with my former 800lb gorilla client, America's largest bank. So my invoices now go into The Black Hole and no one knows when they will come out. Not my clients. No one. Big secret in the bombed out shell of APs. I discovered this when someone finally answered my pesky emails and he had an Indian name of twenty syllables. Naturally I did a search of his name on LinkedIn and discovered the whole Mumbai PITA. So beware. And that's another reason I'm leaving: The clients will love your ass and work but then when you are really starving, begging to know when your check will be cut, months after the gig is done, no one wants to go to heavy bat for you because they're all scared of the axe. Recently I had to transfuse personal funds, earmarked for retirement, into my business checking...
Oh! One last, last thing:
Eric Wrote: How often do high end broadcast ads hire small companies? They don't, but these mega medical corps and agencies have lots of other videos besides ads they need done, and they often want "just a shooter", since they already have a relationship with a post place. In fact, one of my best sources of work are the happy editors. They can say great or negative things about you so I always considered them a great source of business. Where I have gotten a lot of my best biz is what I call Video 911, or a Hot Potato fell in their lap, or they are running around with their hair on fire, because an emergency video project was tossed to them. And there I am! Often out-of-staters who know of no one in my area. I don't advertise myself as a full service production company, I make a point that I am a Freelance Cameraman, and that has helped because when they "just want a videographer", there I is.
See ya,
Ned
P.S. See:
http://nypost.com/trending-tv/what-it-takes-to-make-one-of-those-multimillion-dollar-super-bowl-ads/
"I'm employed as a software/devops engineer at a very large organization. When we had an internal video project come up... I volunteered to do the video."
My theory is that these IT fellows want to do something creative after looking at code for years. I can't blame them for wanting to do the videos, makes them a value added worker, but this trend is another reason I'm dropping out a few years earlier than planned. Every organization now has IT and software folks on staff and it's that side of their brain being powerful (right side?) that gives them the ability to easily figure out how to "run" a video camera. Fortunately for us they suck at lighting, which has to be taught, and they often screw up the audio, but many times I have contacted a prospect and was told they are now "doing it in-house". Or I should say, their videos for internal usage are DIY because they only care if the content was understood, rather than it looking pro. My experience is that anything for employees only, they will throw less budget at it. I do a lot of HR work that is for recruitment, especially of recent graduates. When we're finished and the clients are happy with my work (I get them to give me a referral on LinkedIn), I then ask if there's any internal HR videos I can do for them and now, in 2017, invariably they will say they are DIY. As has been discussed previously, the B2C large companies in my area, like Kraft Heinz, now do it DIY with their bloggers and media savvy Millennials because they actually WANT it to look DIY by the viewing consumers. But for a Board of Directors or Investors Relations meetings video, that's where I will be brought in, but my slice of the pie has gotten thinner because there are now so many competitors that are similar to me, thus bringing rates down. Actual bidding wars. Prospects asking me to match the lower price of a competitor, as if I'm selling tires. And the younger prospects are now using apps, my theory is out of laziness, to post video shoots and see the masses bid as low as possible. It seems every year we pros get older, there are now more (younger) competitors just from the fact that another year went by, right? And you can be Fat 'n Happy now, busy as Hell, but the problem with a project oriented small business is: You Never Know When It Will Get Dead Slow. I tried to never let my ego get in the way of saving.
Stand by for tomorrow's Super Bowl ads, some will, I bet, be vertical. In fact, if anyone wants to contact me off line and wager, that'd be fun! There will be ads that are purposefully made to look as UGC (User Generated Content) even if shot by us pros, or maybe they gathered footage from consumers?
As to Puredrifting saying the big medical companies only use their agencies, I am, and never have been, of the high stylish level to pursue their broadcast ad work, I could if they want a doc look, but from what I know, they only use these giant agencies because so much consumer research is involved. Perhaps also because of the air time buys. There are many millions and perhaps billions at stake. They aren't selling low price point retail items as are most TV advertisers.
I have spent a lifetime schmoozing with the producers of in-house Fortune 100 media departments, but it's like a dating arc: Meet, Infatuation, Hot & Heavy, Complacency, Arguing, Break Up. Also, many wanted me to use their gear to amortize the cost of their equipment, so I turn those down. As to the example Crafty gave, I have seen in-house media departments purposely over bid a department's request for a video because they did not want to do it or were too busy. It's what they call a charge back system, funny money, a switching of funds from one department's budget to another. There is also an arc as to a company creating their own in-house department and then getting rid of it, usually when a recession hits.
And that's how I got my $8000 Sachtler for free! I was filming in the late 80s in a corporation and they said they wanted to do a BTS of me and my crew. I asked them how they could do that if we only have my one working camera and the client said, "We used to have our own video department but we recently fired everybody and have a room full of gear we will be selling, so we'll use that stuff." So, imagine telling a guy like me that, I asked to see the stuff after we wrapped and there were two Sachtlers and I was at the time using wooden legs with an Oconnor 50, (to you young guys that would look like George Washington's surveying gear) and I told him I will immediately bring cash tomorrow for these two items. He said, "We plan on having an auction, I don't want you to cherry pick the best stuff." So, we came to a confidential agreement that I would trade two days of shooting for the two Sachtlers! But the moral of my, and Puredrifting's stories, is that these in-house departments come and go, but when they are in use they are NOT a good thing for us freelancers. Often, with a monster size client like an Allstate here, an in-house producer goes freelance and they farm out everything to him or her because they know the players, politics, etc.
Oh, one last thing, reminds me, Puredrifting talking about large agencies: I'M DONE WITH THEM! The US's largest ad agency hired me for an emergency project, shooting only, late 2015 to mid 2016, going around the country interviewing CEOs. Easy. Problem was, the checks for the enormous travel reimbursements never came. They had a paperwork system where they wanted to wait until the last invoice came in. Got into the $14-16K range not including my labor, and I would complain and complain but the clients I was dealing with could be of no help due to The Black Hole. What is The Black Hole you ask? I'm glad you asked that. It is now where our invoices go, when we work for extremely large companies, because after this last recession they fired their accounting personnel and outsourced their "back office", what we would call accounts payable, to Mumbai, India! I swear. Google it. Same with my former 800lb gorilla client, America's largest bank. So my invoices now go into The Black Hole and no one knows when they will come out. Not my clients. No one. Big secret in the bombed out shell of APs. I discovered this when someone finally answered my pesky emails and he had an Indian name of twenty syllables. Naturally I did a search of his name on LinkedIn and discovered the whole Mumbai PITA. So beware. And that's another reason I'm leaving: The clients will love your ass and work but then when you are really starving, begging to know when your check will be cut, months after the gig is done, no one wants to go to heavy bat for you because they're all scared of the axe. Recently I had to transfuse personal funds, earmarked for retirement, into my business checking...
Oh! One last, last thing:
Eric Wrote: How often do high end broadcast ads hire small companies? They don't, but these mega medical corps and agencies have lots of other videos besides ads they need done, and they often want "just a shooter", since they already have a relationship with a post place. In fact, one of my best sources of work are the happy editors. They can say great or negative things about you so I always considered them a great source of business. Where I have gotten a lot of my best biz is what I call Video 911, or a Hot Potato fell in their lap, or they are running around with their hair on fire, because an emergency video project was tossed to them. And there I am! Often out-of-staters who know of no one in my area. I don't advertise myself as a full service production company, I make a point that I am a Freelance Cameraman, and that has helped because when they "just want a videographer", there I is.
See ya,
Ned
P.S. See:
http://nypost.com/trending-tv/what-it-takes-to-make-one-of-those-multimillion-dollar-super-bowl-ads/
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puredrifting
Major Contributor
Quite often. The ad world, at least on the west coast, was populated by lots of small boutique production companies. Often they were/are vanity companies financed as side projects by actors. I recall back at this time, one of the hottest commercial production companies for spots was owned by actor Olympia Dukakis, can't recall the name of the company though. There were quite a few other spot boutique companies with small rosters of directors, many from features and music videos as well who were the hot spot directors of the late 90s. Many of these companies were really small, 5-10 employees and some of them got a leg up in the ad production world and eventually became huge. But it was a very insular little clique, at least here on the left coast. New York and Chicago were whole other things. Not being bankrolled by a Hollywood actor and not hanging with cool kids in Hollywood, we kind of maxed out what we were doing in high end corporate but could never crack the high end broadcast spot world, it was an entirely different world, one filled with shallow MBAs from Ivy Leagues who decided to become "creatives", Hollwood actors on the trip down in fame so they wanted to stay in production but they weren't flavor of the moment in Hollywood anymore. In the early 90s, all of the cool commercial prodcos were in Hollywood, then it all moved to the West Side, Santa Monica. We used to do "on-line" editing and transfers at the high end post houses in Santa Monica, paying $500.00 an hour for Quantel Paint and Film Transfers. They would have hot looking young ladies wheel in the Cappucino machine and snacks into the edit bay. It was very different from today.
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bill totolo
Veteran
No judgements, horses for courses. I know my limitations, and I can't do my best work by myself.
nedcam
Well-known member
Hey Puredrifting,
Here in Chicago, the highest form of TV advertising art are the commercials the five major hospitals produce, always in a beautiful faux documentary style, mainly using real people and doctors. I get the scoop in our local trade magazine, Screen:
http://reelchicago.com
when they list the BTS it's always top LA production companies and famous DPs who shot it, not sure who the ad agencies are, but from reading the trades the agencies tend to be the large ones in NYC or their division which specialize in medical. I strongly suggest you subscribe to that Medical Media & Marketing trade magazine listed above. Contact me offline and I'll tell you my trick to getting a free paper subscription that lasts for years.
So, knowing that you'd like to do more healthcare bc that's where the money is, you can use LinkedIn's Advanced Search Function to find geographically desirable marketing executives in that field, especially medical devices. They won't discuss ad work with you, but the marketing departments use an incredible amount of video. Unfortunately for us, they will have already someone they prefer using. So when my friendly spams comes in, if the timing is just right, or they flag my email for future consideration, then I'm in business. That's how I got my last big hospital client. I threw spaghetti at the wall on a slow day and it arrived the moment that the VP of Marketing was told by their current "video guy" he was unavailable for an upcoming shoot, and the rest is history! I believe they liked me because I provided documentary samples similar to their real people vibe, which mimics their TV video branding, but on a Poor Man's scale, meaning a measly C100 with non-cine lenses, much of it available light.
See ya,
Ned
P.S. The medical device sector is the fastest growing segment of the healthcare industry but be advised the hot newer term is now Healthcare Equipment, so use that also in your keyword search. I have stopped all my marketing 100% now, so you cn have my tricks.
Here in Chicago, the highest form of TV advertising art are the commercials the five major hospitals produce, always in a beautiful faux documentary style, mainly using real people and doctors. I get the scoop in our local trade magazine, Screen:
http://reelchicago.com
when they list the BTS it's always top LA production companies and famous DPs who shot it, not sure who the ad agencies are, but from reading the trades the agencies tend to be the large ones in NYC or their division which specialize in medical. I strongly suggest you subscribe to that Medical Media & Marketing trade magazine listed above. Contact me offline and I'll tell you my trick to getting a free paper subscription that lasts for years.
So, knowing that you'd like to do more healthcare bc that's where the money is, you can use LinkedIn's Advanced Search Function to find geographically desirable marketing executives in that field, especially medical devices. They won't discuss ad work with you, but the marketing departments use an incredible amount of video. Unfortunately for us, they will have already someone they prefer using. So when my friendly spams comes in, if the timing is just right, or they flag my email for future consideration, then I'm in business. That's how I got my last big hospital client. I threw spaghetti at the wall on a slow day and it arrived the moment that the VP of Marketing was told by their current "video guy" he was unavailable for an upcoming shoot, and the rest is history! I believe they liked me because I provided documentary samples similar to their real people vibe, which mimics their TV video branding, but on a Poor Man's scale, meaning a measly C100 with non-cine lenses, much of it available light.
See ya,
Ned
P.S. The medical device sector is the fastest growing segment of the healthcare industry but be advised the hot newer term is now Healthcare Equipment, so use that also in your keyword search. I have stopped all my marketing 100% now, so you cn have my tricks.
Confirmed - Even though neither my wife nor I have income this year, we have to pay an additional fee for Medicare coverage. Go figure. That's one I never read on all the 'tips' articles I've read. More at the link.
Wow--What a wonderful thread! It's a little depressing that I actually had the time to read through it this week. Some of these comments are like I could have wrote them myself. I'll play catch up.
I'm a long-time shooter (37 years) like Ned (we were neighbors and friendly competitors when I worked in Chicago)
I wish we could have a candid, private discussion about rates around the country. If I were posting anonymously, I probably wouldn't mind. As a lone wolf in my market, I have no real idea what others here or elsewhere are getting for rates. I should know that, but I don't. But like many, I can be very flexible depending on how slow I am. I tried posting my rates on my site a few years ago, mostly in an effort to pre-screen out folks that expect something for nothing, but quickly realized that my rates were all over the place depending on what I was doing for a particular client. So I decided it was too problematic.
I loved the early discussion about not having demos on the website. I hear enough of "I liked your reel, and I have a shoot next month..." so I'm sold. Sorry, Ned. We'll disagree on that one.
Speaking of websites, how many guys of a "certain age" are like me in that they have quit using pics of themselves that might show how "experienced" they actually are or hedge how many years they've been at this game. I'm currently at "over 20 years of experience" and leave a decade and a half off the pitch. Not that anyone might discriminate on age. I'm sure I've shocked a few clients when the geezer shows up!
I've had an F5 since it was released and it's been a great camera for me. If I had to buy a camera tomorrow, it would probably be an FS7II. Great bang for the buck. I like the Canon look, but the form factor was a no-go for me. I know for sure that has cost me some work with certain reality show clients, but I have a thing about rigs.
I use the Sigma Art 18-35 for some interviews and it's a great looking lens. But I prefer to use it in 4K so I can crop around it's lack of range when needed, but if I'm delivering HD (which is pretty much always) it's in my lens case. I have some primes but my go-to lens is the Canon 17-55. It's pretty handy. I sometimes hate the steppy Iris when using still lenses on my Sony, but the cost factor is worth the hassle. My days of buying $20K lenses are over.
I market myself as cinematographer/lighting camera. Cinematographer for my favored work, which are docs. I agree lighting camera best describes what I do. Interestingly, it attracts clients from the UK, where I guess the term originated...even though it has a somewhat different meaning over there. I find the term DP pretentious for what I do, but that's what a lot of people search for.
Lastly, I am progressively moving from pure owner-operator to more turn-key work. As a young newsguy, I edited and produced my own stories on a daily basis, and I was pretty good at it. Those skills are still there and it's been fun to dust them off and use them again producing stories for local nonprofits and small business. Not as lucrative as the good old days, when I was getting crazy rates as an early adopter during the HD transition. But the work is meaningful and the money is pretty decent for these times, anyway.
I hope this thread lives on. It's been interesting. Thanks to all that have shared.
I'm a long-time shooter (37 years) like Ned (we were neighbors and friendly competitors when I worked in Chicago)
I wish we could have a candid, private discussion about rates around the country. If I were posting anonymously, I probably wouldn't mind. As a lone wolf in my market, I have no real idea what others here or elsewhere are getting for rates. I should know that, but I don't. But like many, I can be very flexible depending on how slow I am. I tried posting my rates on my site a few years ago, mostly in an effort to pre-screen out folks that expect something for nothing, but quickly realized that my rates were all over the place depending on what I was doing for a particular client. So I decided it was too problematic.
I loved the early discussion about not having demos on the website. I hear enough of "I liked your reel, and I have a shoot next month..." so I'm sold. Sorry, Ned. We'll disagree on that one.
Speaking of websites, how many guys of a "certain age" are like me in that they have quit using pics of themselves that might show how "experienced" they actually are or hedge how many years they've been at this game. I'm currently at "over 20 years of experience" and leave a decade and a half off the pitch. Not that anyone might discriminate on age. I'm sure I've shocked a few clients when the geezer shows up!
I've had an F5 since it was released and it's been a great camera for me. If I had to buy a camera tomorrow, it would probably be an FS7II. Great bang for the buck. I like the Canon look, but the form factor was a no-go for me. I know for sure that has cost me some work with certain reality show clients, but I have a thing about rigs.
I use the Sigma Art 18-35 for some interviews and it's a great looking lens. But I prefer to use it in 4K so I can crop around it's lack of range when needed, but if I'm delivering HD (which is pretty much always) it's in my lens case. I have some primes but my go-to lens is the Canon 17-55. It's pretty handy. I sometimes hate the steppy Iris when using still lenses on my Sony, but the cost factor is worth the hassle. My days of buying $20K lenses are over.
I market myself as cinematographer/lighting camera. Cinematographer for my favored work, which are docs. I agree lighting camera best describes what I do. Interestingly, it attracts clients from the UK, where I guess the term originated...even though it has a somewhat different meaning over there. I find the term DP pretentious for what I do, but that's what a lot of people search for.
Lastly, I am progressively moving from pure owner-operator to more turn-key work. As a young newsguy, I edited and produced my own stories on a daily basis, and I was pretty good at it. Those skills are still there and it's been fun to dust them off and use them again producing stories for local nonprofits and small business. Not as lucrative as the good old days, when I was getting crazy rates as an early adopter during the HD transition. But the work is meaningful and the money is pretty decent for these times, anyway.
I hope this thread lives on. It's been interesting. Thanks to all that have shared.
Gotta say, this thread has encouraged me to be more active on DVXuser, where I've been kind of hiding out but mostly reading for a while now. Really good summaries here -- on both sides -- of some of the realities we are all familiar with working in video or with it. Just want to say thanks to all who have contributed, it's been a really inspiring (in its way) sort of post for me. The knowledge base here never ceases to amaze me, and everybody's honesty and POV is highly valued, and I know I'm not the only one who is thinking that. Thanks again.
Jaime Valles
Veteran
You can. That's I think is what Ned had in mind when he said he wanted a new forum to discuss business, tips & tricks, and other subjects that are not normal on these sorts of forums. So I set one up here. http://tabbycatmusicarchives.com/FilmMakersForum/index.php
Think of it as a lounge or bar where you can let your hair down and really be open about topics you might not feel comfortable talking about on other sites. You can log in anonymously. I set up a few forums topics. If you want to talk about retirement, rates, client experiences, tell us about the bad day you had (or the good), where your success and failures are, how much you miss the old days, or how your not getting along with your mother-in-law, in a named or anonymous way, then my site might be the place for you.
nedcam
Well-known member
Hey JC! Good to hear from you. I shot on M & T (was very ill but couldn't pass up the work) and the client did some cell phone prod stills of me and when she emailed them I thought, "Who is this old guy?" My beard is going grey. There's now a bald spot on the back of my head. My stomach isn't flat. But my spin is what I call Grey Hair Marketing, meaning: I've done it a million times before." Too bad the Sony & Panny guys couldn't participate in this thread, they didn't know about it, but Paul has made us a forum for DP biz matters at this link and maybe if we spread the word:
http://tabbycatmusicarchives.com/Fil...orum/index.php
There's plenty of techy sites for shooters but nuthin really biz oriented.
And Paul, I will do more posting on the other site but I've been sick a week.
However, this two day shoot reinforced why I started to think about quitting the shooting biz: THE LENSES SITUATION. I just can not stand shooting fast doc style having to swap still lenses constantly, even though I am very fast at it. When I first read months ago about the new Canon 18-80 servo zoom lens I thought: YES!!!!! This is what I need to keep me happy shooting docs. Then when I started to flesh it out, it's over $6K with accessories and then I should put it on a FS7, or at least a FS5 for another $7-$11K and when I started to add it up, it occurred to me that the majority of my client base will not pay more. This 18-80 cost was the subject of another thread: I could not understand how someone doing this as a business can just absorb the costs. (I have my theories.) But I, as someone trying to make a profit and living, a Blue Collar Workin Joe Cameraman, can't just buy new gear that's better and not charge more. That's a recipe for going under here. LA & NYC have alternative universes.
If it's a TV show or an agency, they understand camera models and perhaps glass, and it's easier to charge them more for better gear, they get it, but the vast majority of my clients now are VPs, Managers or Directors of Marketing, Sales, Public Relations, Human Resources, Safety Training, entrepreneurs, small biz owners, Kickstarter Dreamers, activists wanting to do a documentary, publicists, you know...people who don't know why I am more expensive than the other bids. Especially if they use Thumbtack and it's similar competitors to gather "bids". Most of my client base are presently happy with the look of my C100, 90% is for "just the web" anyway, so around June I will just service my present client base and not look for any new clients. I have now stopped all marketing, which for me is rare. No new website, no more Production Hub banner. I no longer want to keep my phone within 3' of the shower door. After June I may need to cap my salary at $17K anyway due to those SS rules. And that's why I plan to produce for free for small, local charities' fundraising docs. No money exchanges hands. Someone should write a white paper: How To Keep Your Write Offs in DP Retirement.
On M & T I was doing pure doc shooting of severely special ed kids in a school, and had to be handheld non-stop each day (Easy Rig would have been impractical) for four classes each day at 45 minutes each. (This is tough at 63!). Had to move so fast I couldn't even grab my Osmo which was standing by. This is for an educational software company. I chose the C100 but really I should have used my ENG HPX300 because it has a servo zoom. What happened, approximately one million times, is that I would do my wide of the teacher and student and then zip around for OTS of close ups of the finger on the page or tablet. Invariably, by changing from the 11-16 to the 24-105, which takes about 10-15 seconds, by the time I zipped around for my CUs they had turned the page. Normally I might ask the kid to point at the sentence again but with these kids: No Way. So if I can not have a servo zoom, since I love to do docs, I do not enjoy doing this much anymore. It's become a PITA. Plus add all the other factors in, such as constantly losing bids to competitors who will work cheap and throw in the kitchen sink (and drones) to get the job, crowd sourcing, collecting my money (which is becoming worse due to The Black Hole), etc. I think I am ready. If I were to go C300 II or FS7, and buy that servo zoom, I'd still have a client base that wants me to come in at the same prices that they got from the kid with the DSLR. So I don't get how this business works anymore. How does one make a profit if they need to buy more expensive gear, yet they can't upcharge for it? Does anyone know of any other business that operates this way? I do truly believe it's better on the coasts from Bill T and Puredrifting's client descriptions. I have seen a change in the number of shoot days, most every inquiry is a one or two day shoot, often a half day, although JC gets on a TV program that can go for a few weeks. The juicy all week jobs we used to have, I don't see anyone doing them around here, do you? In fact, the M & T shoot the Director of Marketing usually does them himself! He's decent with his Sony DSLR but he had to hire someone like me because the audio between the teachers and students was critical. The self taught don't know how to do good audio.
And if I talked them into hiring me a PA or Lite Grip, or even an audio guy, there was really no room, I was shooting 360 degrees. I had the teachers on radio mics and it was best if I got close to the kid's face for the on camera mic than have an overhead boom pole for them to stare at. So I was Solo By Choice.
JC, you should polish off those old edit skills of yours because I see that there is a convergence of the Shooter/Editor, where it's now expected the DP will complete through post, whereas I have always outsourced the complex editing, thus losing profit to be competitive.
Oh!!! As to the title of this thread. So I bought that 85mm for a "new look" and set up an interview situation with the students and the first one that came in, No Way he is going to stay in place and I figure the others to follow would be similar. He was rocking and rolling in and out of his depth-of-field, so right before we rolled I switched back to the Old Reliable 70-200 so I could compensate focal length.
I spoke with a union DP today who is 71 and retired, and I thought he'd be sitting pretty with a pension, but he told me that only the feature DPs get a good pension, and most features in Chicago the DP is brought in from LA. Thought that was interesting. Always was jealous! His retirement glide was different: His phone went dead. No requests. I feel my issue is I don't want to work for the prices now offered. There would be plenty of biz that I could accept if I wanted to, but I would have an attitude problem with the rates as mentioned earlier. Every now and then I get my asking price though, but it's now rarer and rarer.
One last thing about feeling ready to move on...in 2016, for the first time ever, I made more money with my investments than I took in salary! Two factors to consider though: Business Sucked and The Stock Market Went Nuts! I'd like to think I was a financial wizard but every idiot in the market did great.
Later,
Ned
P.S. An admin at the school, at lunch, told me her kid wants to major in film in college. I asked her, "Are you rich?"
P.S.S. That plan I had to do legal depositions when I'm using a walker? I spent over $4500 to get certified and buy some gear. I don't think I am going ahead with it. I'd have to wear a suit. The majority of the work is in the most crowded part of downtown. Don't think I can be in a room of arguing lawyers. The idea is to reduce stress.
P.S.S. Did you study the Camera Porn around the Brady cluster f**k immediately after he won the Super Bowl? The Sony XDCam and Panasonic P2 full size ENG cameras are still going strong. Heavy as hell. I watch the Super Bowl for the commercials and eyeing the pro cameras.
http://tabbycatmusicarchives.com/Fil...orum/index.php
There's plenty of techy sites for shooters but nuthin really biz oriented.
And Paul, I will do more posting on the other site but I've been sick a week.
However, this two day shoot reinforced why I started to think about quitting the shooting biz: THE LENSES SITUATION. I just can not stand shooting fast doc style having to swap still lenses constantly, even though I am very fast at it. When I first read months ago about the new Canon 18-80 servo zoom lens I thought: YES!!!!! This is what I need to keep me happy shooting docs. Then when I started to flesh it out, it's over $6K with accessories and then I should put it on a FS7, or at least a FS5 for another $7-$11K and when I started to add it up, it occurred to me that the majority of my client base will not pay more. This 18-80 cost was the subject of another thread: I could not understand how someone doing this as a business can just absorb the costs. (I have my theories.) But I, as someone trying to make a profit and living, a Blue Collar Workin Joe Cameraman, can't just buy new gear that's better and not charge more. That's a recipe for going under here. LA & NYC have alternative universes.
If it's a TV show or an agency, they understand camera models and perhaps glass, and it's easier to charge them more for better gear, they get it, but the vast majority of my clients now are VPs, Managers or Directors of Marketing, Sales, Public Relations, Human Resources, Safety Training, entrepreneurs, small biz owners, Kickstarter Dreamers, activists wanting to do a documentary, publicists, you know...people who don't know why I am more expensive than the other bids. Especially if they use Thumbtack and it's similar competitors to gather "bids". Most of my client base are presently happy with the look of my C100, 90% is for "just the web" anyway, so around June I will just service my present client base and not look for any new clients. I have now stopped all marketing, which for me is rare. No new website, no more Production Hub banner. I no longer want to keep my phone within 3' of the shower door. After June I may need to cap my salary at $17K anyway due to those SS rules. And that's why I plan to produce for free for small, local charities' fundraising docs. No money exchanges hands. Someone should write a white paper: How To Keep Your Write Offs in DP Retirement.
On M & T I was doing pure doc shooting of severely special ed kids in a school, and had to be handheld non-stop each day (Easy Rig would have been impractical) for four classes each day at 45 minutes each. (This is tough at 63!). Had to move so fast I couldn't even grab my Osmo which was standing by. This is for an educational software company. I chose the C100 but really I should have used my ENG HPX300 because it has a servo zoom. What happened, approximately one million times, is that I would do my wide of the teacher and student and then zip around for OTS of close ups of the finger on the page or tablet. Invariably, by changing from the 11-16 to the 24-105, which takes about 10-15 seconds, by the time I zipped around for my CUs they had turned the page. Normally I might ask the kid to point at the sentence again but with these kids: No Way. So if I can not have a servo zoom, since I love to do docs, I do not enjoy doing this much anymore. It's become a PITA. Plus add all the other factors in, such as constantly losing bids to competitors who will work cheap and throw in the kitchen sink (and drones) to get the job, crowd sourcing, collecting my money (which is becoming worse due to The Black Hole), etc. I think I am ready. If I were to go C300 II or FS7, and buy that servo zoom, I'd still have a client base that wants me to come in at the same prices that they got from the kid with the DSLR. So I don't get how this business works anymore. How does one make a profit if they need to buy more expensive gear, yet they can't upcharge for it? Does anyone know of any other business that operates this way? I do truly believe it's better on the coasts from Bill T and Puredrifting's client descriptions. I have seen a change in the number of shoot days, most every inquiry is a one or two day shoot, often a half day, although JC gets on a TV program that can go for a few weeks. The juicy all week jobs we used to have, I don't see anyone doing them around here, do you? In fact, the M & T shoot the Director of Marketing usually does them himself! He's decent with his Sony DSLR but he had to hire someone like me because the audio between the teachers and students was critical. The self taught don't know how to do good audio.
And if I talked them into hiring me a PA or Lite Grip, or even an audio guy, there was really no room, I was shooting 360 degrees. I had the teachers on radio mics and it was best if I got close to the kid's face for the on camera mic than have an overhead boom pole for them to stare at. So I was Solo By Choice.
JC, you should polish off those old edit skills of yours because I see that there is a convergence of the Shooter/Editor, where it's now expected the DP will complete through post, whereas I have always outsourced the complex editing, thus losing profit to be competitive.
Oh!!! As to the title of this thread. So I bought that 85mm for a "new look" and set up an interview situation with the students and the first one that came in, No Way he is going to stay in place and I figure the others to follow would be similar. He was rocking and rolling in and out of his depth-of-field, so right before we rolled I switched back to the Old Reliable 70-200 so I could compensate focal length.
I spoke with a union DP today who is 71 and retired, and I thought he'd be sitting pretty with a pension, but he told me that only the feature DPs get a good pension, and most features in Chicago the DP is brought in from LA. Thought that was interesting. Always was jealous! His retirement glide was different: His phone went dead. No requests. I feel my issue is I don't want to work for the prices now offered. There would be plenty of biz that I could accept if I wanted to, but I would have an attitude problem with the rates as mentioned earlier. Every now and then I get my asking price though, but it's now rarer and rarer.
One last thing about feeling ready to move on...in 2016, for the first time ever, I made more money with my investments than I took in salary! Two factors to consider though: Business Sucked and The Stock Market Went Nuts! I'd like to think I was a financial wizard but every idiot in the market did great.
Later,
Ned
P.S. An admin at the school, at lunch, told me her kid wants to major in film in college. I asked her, "Are you rich?"
P.S.S. That plan I had to do legal depositions when I'm using a walker? I spent over $4500 to get certified and buy some gear. I don't think I am going ahead with it. I'd have to wear a suit. The majority of the work is in the most crowded part of downtown. Don't think I can be in a room of arguing lawyers. The idea is to reduce stress.
P.S.S. Did you study the Camera Porn around the Brady cluster f**k immediately after he won the Super Bowl? The Sony XDCam and Panasonic P2 full size ENG cameras are still going strong. Heavy as hell. I watch the Super Bowl for the commercials and eyeing the pro cameras.
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I hear you on the lens switching. I like primes, and don't mind when there's time... but when it's a scramble, it gets old fast. Doing it at weddings is necessary because of the lighting conditions. Most zooms just aren't fast enough. Even on my last vacation, I found myself getting irritated having to swap. Wanted to pitch the camera off a cliff at times.
On gear costs... I've always been surprised with how little I have compared to almost everyone online. Even those who do it as a side gig or a hobby seem to have way more than me. But it makes sense. They make actual money, and can afford it. I talked to different videographers and photographers at weddings. Most seem to have other jobs that pay for their gear. So essentially they are paying to go to work, which is utterly silly to me but hey, it's their choice. Charging the rates I do, it just doesn't make any business sense to get anything beyond the basics, and being able to charge more has been a challenge. It's a vicious cycle.
Weddings can be really bad because there's always a pile of gear that you need for all the "just in case" scenarios, and my current boss is often pressuring me to get more but it's like... who's paying for this exactly? Ain't gonna be me. Now drones seem to be requested more and more. Yeesh.