Hvx200 At Ibc - Latest News From The Show
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mikkowilson
Steadi-Guru
Ok folks, here's the writeup on day 3 of IBC 2005.
Topics for today:
Brief update on the HVX, including a trip to Apple and Canopus..
The DVCPRO-HD Firstore, FS100
Update on the A1.
***** HVX200
The sort version: Nothing new, the demo footage beeing shown at IBC is limited, but looks good.
The long version:
No new specs have been released, (Jan can atest.. I have been pestering) except that unfortuanly a couple of features have been confirmed as not present.
Mainly the fact there there will be 2 versions of the Camera, a NTSC/30p/60i version and a PAL/25p/50i version. Basically beacuse with all these various formats that the HVX can record.. so many framerates and timebases, all still within standards, and then with Audio still matching.. it woudl be insanely difficult to build a camera that could perform all these features twice! - It's not as simple as just adjusting the Sync generators in the Camera.. there's a LOT going on there.
I'm a little dissapointed that I won't be able to use an HVX the world over and have it be compatible.. but I do lly understand that for what we get for the size/price of the camera, it's still remarkable.
I was asked to investigate the possibilty of flipping the image in teh viewfinder for when wotking with special lenses.. Unfortunatly this won't happen either. Without goign into teh tecfhnical mumbo-jumbo, that i dont' really know/understand, it's really complicated a way a video image is drawn on a sceen, especially when you are mixing in on screen displays, aspect ration and format conversion, etc.. Again, it is possible, The Varicam does it. But it woudl just take up too much space and cost too much to implment in the HVX. Apparently it took them 7 monthes ot get it to work in the Varicam alone!
And as for the questions regarding P2-card compatibilty in Macs. Basically that's Apple's problem, becuse it's an operating system poblem, however I was assured that Apple is working on getting it sorted. Again for precident, it took them a little bit to support the DVCPRO format, but they worked it out, and it works great.
There is actually a lot of footage from this camera aviabale for viewing at IBC, however non available to take off site.
Panasonic has not shot any footage with teh HVX that they are releasing yet. And the cameras at their stand are just set up with the compoent outputs directly sending 1080i out to adjecent monitors.
Apple has a HVX that they have used to shoot a test clip to P2 card with outside the show.
The footage looked very nice on a large apple cinema display with FCP.. it was very blue, because the yet unfinished cameras dont' have any working White Balance, or other image controls. The clip was 1080i. And once color corrected in FCP, the image looked fantastic.
I got a chance to actually handle the camera for the first time.. It's really rather heavy.. suposedly directly comparable to the FX1 or Z1.
Canopus also has an HVX200 at their stand at IBC, the also had some footage in their edit system, that was shot actually inside the show.. again nothing to really be proud of as far as shooting (and again, wont' be released tot he public.. ..though i did try ask fort a copy of the clip..). This image was supposedly shot in 1080/24p mode... which i wasn't aware that was workign in ay of the cameras, however it really didn't look one bit interlaced on a still frame on the output. The picture again was a very high quality, un color corrected image, that was a little blue. But still looked very good.
******** FS100
My focus of the day turned, well, to Focus (Enhancements that is) for their newly released solution to DTE recording for the upcoming HVX200.
Focus has been making the Firestore Hard Drive recorder for few years, and it is very popular. The basic idea is that as the camera sends out it's data stream out through firewire (this is the same data that is beeing recorded (traditionally to tape)) the Firestore captures it and saves it to a hard drive as a ready to edit file. - Not all a disimilar workplow to P2 in that sence.
Hard drives have some major disadvatages over P2.. firstly they have been known to crash. They also take a lot of power, are large, and dont' paticularly liek beeing dropped. However they do have a couple of major benefits over P2.. they have a mcuh larger capacity, and they are much much cheaper!
It has been basically a public expectation that Focus will produce a Firestor unit that coudl work with the HVX.. and they have!
Here are the details:
*It's called the Firestore-100
*It records DVCPRO-50 and DVCPRO-HD in their native MXF file format.. It will work just like a P2 card once it's connected to a computer.
*It can also record DVCPRO, and of course regular DV.
*Physically it will have the same body as the FS4 does.
*On the inside it will be entirly new, with a new control board and of course Hard drive.
*The internal Hard drive will have a capacity of 100GB, that is about 90 minutes of DVCPRO-HD ..long format shooters rejoice!
*It will also feature the "Cache recording" ..that's the availablity of recoding into a buffer of a few seconds that is saved when you hit Rec to allow you to capture that shot you just 'missed'!
*It will have various mountingoptions avaialble, just as the FS4.
*It can record anythign that the HVX is sending out of it's firewire connector, regardless if the Camera is recording or not (of course this output will be defined by Panasonic) And it shoudl also support the allready familewr feature of Sycnro recording.. when you hit record on the camera to start recoriding, the FS100 should start too.
*It will again have a GPI trigger port, allready familer in the FS4.
Theoretically, you shoudl be able to roll off a full90min, then start recording to a P2 card to bridge a few minutes whiel you switch to a 2nd FS100 for another 90 mins. ..probebly not very comon, but if you need it, it looks like that shoudl be possible!
The FS100 will cost "under $2000", it will be available in spring '06 though Panasonic.
According to Jan, there is a possibilty of a package deal involving the HVX200 and the FS100 (instead of [or even with?] P2 cards).
*****Sony A1 HDV palmcorder.
As I allready mentioned this afternoon, it apears that I recived incorrect information about the multiformat possibilty of the A1. I was told by a Sony rep that the camera did have the abiliuty. However on attempting to find the feature in the menu, I was unsuccessfull.
Lar's comments about the A1 tend to lean me furthur in the direction that the A1 isn't switchable... And I will presume so untill I can confirm otherwise.
This concludes my report for day 3 of IBC 2005.
I will be back on tommorrow evening with another update; that should include maybe a few more tidbits about the HVX, and hopefuly some information on the new lens control options that will be avaialable for that Focus/Iris port on the HVX200 and DVX100B
- Mikko
Topics for today:
Brief update on the HVX, including a trip to Apple and Canopus..
The DVCPRO-HD Firstore, FS100
Update on the A1.
***** HVX200
The sort version: Nothing new, the demo footage beeing shown at IBC is limited, but looks good.
The long version:
No new specs have been released, (Jan can atest.. I have been pestering) except that unfortuanly a couple of features have been confirmed as not present.
Mainly the fact there there will be 2 versions of the Camera, a NTSC/30p/60i version and a PAL/25p/50i version. Basically beacuse with all these various formats that the HVX can record.. so many framerates and timebases, all still within standards, and then with Audio still matching.. it woudl be insanely difficult to build a camera that could perform all these features twice! - It's not as simple as just adjusting the Sync generators in the Camera.. there's a LOT going on there.
I'm a little dissapointed that I won't be able to use an HVX the world over and have it be compatible.. but I do lly understand that for what we get for the size/price of the camera, it's still remarkable.
I was asked to investigate the possibilty of flipping the image in teh viewfinder for when wotking with special lenses.. Unfortunatly this won't happen either. Without goign into teh tecfhnical mumbo-jumbo, that i dont' really know/understand, it's really complicated a way a video image is drawn on a sceen, especially when you are mixing in on screen displays, aspect ration and format conversion, etc.. Again, it is possible, The Varicam does it. But it woudl just take up too much space and cost too much to implment in the HVX. Apparently it took them 7 monthes ot get it to work in the Varicam alone!
And as for the questions regarding P2-card compatibilty in Macs. Basically that's Apple's problem, becuse it's an operating system poblem, however I was assured that Apple is working on getting it sorted. Again for precident, it took them a little bit to support the DVCPRO format, but they worked it out, and it works great.
There is actually a lot of footage from this camera aviabale for viewing at IBC, however non available to take off site.
Panasonic has not shot any footage with teh HVX that they are releasing yet. And the cameras at their stand are just set up with the compoent outputs directly sending 1080i out to adjecent monitors.
Apple has a HVX that they have used to shoot a test clip to P2 card with outside the show.
The footage looked very nice on a large apple cinema display with FCP.. it was very blue, because the yet unfinished cameras dont' have any working White Balance, or other image controls. The clip was 1080i. And once color corrected in FCP, the image looked fantastic.
I got a chance to actually handle the camera for the first time.. It's really rather heavy.. suposedly directly comparable to the FX1 or Z1.
Canopus also has an HVX200 at their stand at IBC, the also had some footage in their edit system, that was shot actually inside the show.. again nothing to really be proud of as far as shooting (and again, wont' be released tot he public.. ..though i did try ask fort a copy of the clip..). This image was supposedly shot in 1080/24p mode... which i wasn't aware that was workign in ay of the cameras, however it really didn't look one bit interlaced on a still frame on the output. The picture again was a very high quality, un color corrected image, that was a little blue. But still looked very good.
******** FS100
My focus of the day turned, well, to Focus (Enhancements that is) for their newly released solution to DTE recording for the upcoming HVX200.
Focus has been making the Firestore Hard Drive recorder for few years, and it is very popular. The basic idea is that as the camera sends out it's data stream out through firewire (this is the same data that is beeing recorded (traditionally to tape)) the Firestore captures it and saves it to a hard drive as a ready to edit file. - Not all a disimilar workplow to P2 in that sence.
Hard drives have some major disadvatages over P2.. firstly they have been known to crash. They also take a lot of power, are large, and dont' paticularly liek beeing dropped. However they do have a couple of major benefits over P2.. they have a mcuh larger capacity, and they are much much cheaper!
It has been basically a public expectation that Focus will produce a Firestor unit that coudl work with the HVX.. and they have!
Here are the details:
*It's called the Firestore-100
*It records DVCPRO-50 and DVCPRO-HD in their native MXF file format.. It will work just like a P2 card once it's connected to a computer.
*It can also record DVCPRO, and of course regular DV.
*Physically it will have the same body as the FS4 does.
*On the inside it will be entirly new, with a new control board and of course Hard drive.
*The internal Hard drive will have a capacity of 100GB, that is about 90 minutes of DVCPRO-HD ..long format shooters rejoice!
*It will also feature the "Cache recording" ..that's the availablity of recoding into a buffer of a few seconds that is saved when you hit Rec to allow you to capture that shot you just 'missed'!
*It will have various mountingoptions avaialble, just as the FS4.
*It can record anythign that the HVX is sending out of it's firewire connector, regardless if the Camera is recording or not (of course this output will be defined by Panasonic) And it shoudl also support the allready familewr feature of Sycnro recording.. when you hit record on the camera to start recoriding, the FS100 should start too.
*It will again have a GPI trigger port, allready familer in the FS4.
Theoretically, you shoudl be able to roll off a full90min, then start recording to a P2 card to bridge a few minutes whiel you switch to a 2nd FS100 for another 90 mins. ..probebly not very comon, but if you need it, it looks like that shoudl be possible!
The FS100 will cost "under $2000", it will be available in spring '06 though Panasonic.
According to Jan, there is a possibilty of a package deal involving the HVX200 and the FS100 (instead of [or even with?] P2 cards).
*****Sony A1 HDV palmcorder.
As I allready mentioned this afternoon, it apears that I recived incorrect information about the multiformat possibilty of the A1. I was told by a Sony rep that the camera did have the abiliuty. However on attempting to find the feature in the menu, I was unsuccessfull.
Lar's comments about the A1 tend to lean me furthur in the direction that the A1 isn't switchable... And I will presume so untill I can confirm otherwise.
This concludes my report for day 3 of IBC 2005.
I will be back on tommorrow evening with another update; that should include maybe a few more tidbits about the HVX, and hopefuly some information on the new lens control options that will be avaialable for that Focus/Iris port on the HVX200 and DVX100B
- Mikko
mr._guiyotinne
Well-known member
12 or 11 thousand for everything is not a bad offer. Or even 10 thousand for everything as they would anounce those 16GB P2 cards by NAB (was it something like this?)... But a package with everything is a really good thing.
The flipping: Ok, we will have to do it in post. Pity, but not unexpected. I´m sold. :thumbsup:
The flipping: Ok, we will have to do it in post. Pity, but not unexpected. I´m sold. :thumbsup:
Cees Mutsaers
Veteran
I as a potential customer for the HVX (99% sure) am getting a little pissed off of this secrecy of Panasonic :angry: If you don't want to give any relevant info before the cam is on the market just do not show it at all. For instance pixel count is not important according to Jan, it is the image quality that counts. She is ofcourse right but since the image quality of the HVX at the IBC looked good (to my opinion much better than the competion) why don't tell the pixel count ???? or is it maybe lower than the competition and are they afraid that ignorant people will go for the Z1's HD100s etc. because they probably have a higher pixel count.
I hope you DVXuser reporters will manage to get more info out of the Panasonic people in the 2 days to come :happy:
I hope you DVXuser reporters will manage to get more info out of the Panasonic people in the 2 days to come :happy:
mr._guiyotinne
Well-known member
Cees, i don´t care about pixels being 2 mill or 1 or none. Less pixels maybe mean bigger pixels and better low light work. As long as it kickass the others i´ll be fine (and no purple fringing).
Probably what i say is what you think too, so don´t take it seriously. I just want a darn DVD full of DVCPROHD HVX videos. That will mean a lot of popcorn sitting next to my mac and lot of questions about my salivating pleasure face! :cheesy:
Probably what i say is what you think too, so don´t take it seriously. I just want a darn DVD full of DVCPROHD HVX videos. That will mean a lot of popcorn sitting next to my mac and lot of questions about my salivating pleasure face! :cheesy:
Anhar_Miah
Veteran
damn!, so I can have more sensitivity but my clients will look like pixelated pacman! :happy:
mr._guiyotinne
Well-known member
LOL Anhar! But they will look nicer HD pacmans!
Jan_Crittenden
Veteran
mmm said:
Version 3 will be available when the camera is released in December. I would think so as we are prepping it for a world wide marketing tool. Version three may end up with more languages on it but that is tomorrow's discussion.
Not at liberty to say on the chip size. But I think the picture quality speaks highly for the chip technology.
Best,
jan
Jan_Crittenden
Veteran
Mr. Guiyotinne and all,
The problem is that there are too many formats in the camera to support both NTSC and PAL at this introduct and potentially some time to come. I think I counted 27, give or take a couple, as the variable frame rates also count as a format, so to switch to PAL the varibale frames there are a little different as those are optimized and chosen for 50Hz compatibility, that would make the camera have 54 formats. There is not enough time to write an LSI that will handle that heavy of a conversion in the time frame we have to bring this camera to the market. The fact is that if it were three fromats like the Sony camera, that would be different, almost easy, but this is not. What is taking place here is some very heavy duty calculations and not for the easy, just do it sort of idea. If we did this it would be at least another year and a half in the making, just like if we put all of the varible frame rates the Varicam has in it, it would be another year in the making. None of us want to wait that long.
And then as you point out the gray market issue is a huge problem.
Thanks for understanding,
Jan
The problem is that there are too many formats in the camera to support both NTSC and PAL at this introduct and potentially some time to come. I think I counted 27, give or take a couple, as the variable frame rates also count as a format, so to switch to PAL the varibale frames there are a little different as those are optimized and chosen for 50Hz compatibility, that would make the camera have 54 formats. There is not enough time to write an LSI that will handle that heavy of a conversion in the time frame we have to bring this camera to the market. The fact is that if it were three fromats like the Sony camera, that would be different, almost easy, but this is not. What is taking place here is some very heavy duty calculations and not for the easy, just do it sort of idea. If we did this it would be at least another year and a half in the making, just like if we put all of the varible frame rates the Varicam has in it, it would be another year in the making. None of us want to wait that long.
And then as you point out the gray market issue is a huge problem.
Thanks for understanding,
Jan
Yuval Shrem
Active member
Jan,
I understand that adding additional frame rates is complicated, but what about the much needed image flipping for 35mm adapters? that shouldn't be as complicated to add, and will help preserving the P2 workflow ("ready for editing" footage) without the need of tedious rendering of the entire footage and potentially degrading it, not to mention monitoring issues...
Is there any chance to implement this one tiny yet important feature into the final production model?
(Would you PLEASE try to talk to whoever makes these decisions about that? This will be extremely valuable for your targeted independent filmmakers market...)
Thanks,
Yuval.
I understand that adding additional frame rates is complicated, but what about the much needed image flipping for 35mm adapters? that shouldn't be as complicated to add, and will help preserving the P2 workflow ("ready for editing" footage) without the need of tedious rendering of the entire footage and potentially degrading it, not to mention monitoring issues...
Is there any chance to implement this one tiny yet important feature into the final production model?
(Would you PLEASE try to talk to whoever makes these decisions about that? This will be extremely valuable for your targeted independent filmmakers market...)
Thanks,
Yuval.
mr._guiyotinne
Well-known member
Don´t take it seriously...
It´s like making jokes of my little brother!Once is part of the family you can speak more open about it! I´m eager to put mine to work when it arrives in less than a year.
Enjoy and have fun Jan, you have a success in the hands!
It´s like making jokes of my little brother!Once is part of the family you can speak more open about it! I´m eager to put mine to work when it arrives in less than a year.
Enjoy and have fun Jan, you have a success in the hands!
Great info Mikko.
Especialy the firestore is great news. However, this means frequent use of the firewire port (or are they going usb 2?), and thus rapid wearout. So I would really want you to get to Jan and tell her that a 6 PIN firewireconnector is absolutely needed. No kidding, the small 4 pins can break real easy.
I should have thought of that myself when I spoke to her yesterday over there. Doh!
And don't know is this is establishd info or not, but the HVX currently will have 10 variable frame rates. Jan said they are trying to cram 12 in there by the release. She said the top speed capture for the PAL version will be 50 fps (progressive). But the bruchure they hand out states 60 fps. A typo? Well, if the two extra framerates would get in, make one of them 60fps would you. The slower the motion I can get out of this thing the better I'll like it.
Oh and don't forget. Firewire 6PIN!!!!! please :laugh:
Especialy the firestore is great news. However, this means frequent use of the firewire port (or are they going usb 2?), and thus rapid wearout. So I would really want you to get to Jan and tell her that a 6 PIN firewireconnector is absolutely needed. No kidding, the small 4 pins can break real easy.
I should have thought of that myself when I spoke to her yesterday over there. Doh!
And don't know is this is establishd info or not, but the HVX currently will have 10 variable frame rates. Jan said they are trying to cram 12 in there by the release. She said the top speed capture for the PAL version will be 50 fps (progressive). But the bruchure they hand out states 60 fps. A typo? Well, if the two extra framerates would get in, make one of them 60fps would you. The slower the motion I can get out of this thing the better I'll like it.
Oh and don't forget. Firewire 6PIN!!!!! please :laugh:
Jan,
I understand the time-to-market problem. Adding 27 additional modes to a camera is too much, ok, but please tell your inside contacts that they must seriously consider just adding 1 single mode to the PAL camera: 24fps@1080p. Adding just one single mode wouldn't delay the camera that much, right? Consider: For every PAL-user this is an absolute deal breaker! We won't buy the camera without 24p.
This feature is absolutely crucial. Add it. Please add it. Add it. Not 27 modes, just 1. Or your PAL sales will be 1/2. Thanks.
I understand the time-to-market problem. Adding 27 additional modes to a camera is too much, ok, but please tell your inside contacts that they must seriously consider just adding 1 single mode to the PAL camera: 24fps@1080p. Adding just one single mode wouldn't delay the camera that much, right? Consider: For every PAL-user this is an absolute deal breaker! We won't buy the camera without 24p.
This feature is absolutely crucial. Add it. Please add it. Add it. Not 27 modes, just 1. Or your PAL sales will be 1/2. Thanks.
SergejIvanovits
Well-known member
24p on the NTSC camcorder is there just because it is mathematically possible. In Pal you don't need 24p. Or you want to speed up your footage to 25fps at the end?Edelweiss said:
The question about 4,2mm wideangle:
post No 139 has a picture taken from the objective of the hvx200. Do I see there a 2 in the first number? X,2mm ... and do I see there a 55mm in the second? (can't be...) - that makes me think of two things:
1) is the zoom 10x or 12x ?
2) can we compare 4,2mm wideangle with 4,5mm of a different built camera? Compare the wideangles of a 4:3 and of a 16:9 camera? - I don't think so...
Questions.... questions.... and no patience.... neither have I !! :
- so is the zoom 10x or 12x?
- are all variable frame-rates suported for any format (including DV)?
- is the list of variable frame-rates that we find in this forum still correct?
post No 139 has a picture taken from the objective of the hvx200. Do I see there a 2 in the first number? X,2mm ... and do I see there a 55mm in the second? (can't be...) - that makes me think of two things:
1) is the zoom 10x or 12x ?
2) can we compare 4,2mm wideangle with 4,5mm of a different built camera? Compare the wideangles of a 4:3 and of a 16:9 camera? - I don't think so...
Questions.... questions.... and no patience.... neither have I !! :
- so is the zoom 10x or 12x?
- are all variable frame-rates suported for any format (including DV)?
- is the list of variable frame-rates that we find in this forum still correct?
SergejIvanovits said:
Well 24p on PAL is also possible - after all, a P2 card is a memory card which doesn't care about fps - it's just data. If there is no official format for "direct 24p", just create one or save it as 2:3:2:3 NTSC on the card, I don't care, it's just basically "rearranging bits on a memcard".
25p is completely unacceptable if you plan to create a short film and think about a theatrical release in the future. Perceived human emotions can change or distort completely if they are played back at the wrong frame rate. And don't get me started about either mangling the sound through a pitch converter or living with a lower pitch for everything. 24p is the way to go and if the HVX doesn't has it, I'm majorly dissapointed.
Cheers!