HVX or A1?

Stu Siegal

Stu Siegal

Well-known member
OK, I've read all the threads ( I think) and now I need some advice, or maybe just some reassurance.

Upgrading from my 100A. I love the Panny image. I want to by an HVX, but I just cannot seem to find a workflow that fits my needs. And from what I'm reading, the A1 has an excellent image.

Here are the problems with HVX for me:

Most days, I'm a run & gun one man band. I usually shoot 3-4 hours of tape per shoot. I'm frequently shooting in environments where a laptop or p2 store are out of the question. Picture a working lobsterboat in choppy seas - you get the idea. Also, a fair amount of my shooting is handheld, with frequent toggling between sticks.

Here's what this means to me in practical terms. P2 is out of the question - forget about the long takes, the 4 hr per shoot issue makes it cost prohibitive. OK, so what about the FS-100? 4+ hours in 720pn is good, but the handheld/handheld to sticks thing looks rough. I'm no shrinking violet, but I do think that the extra weight is going to be a problem with extensive handheld, and it also seems that a FS-100 would rule out a steadicam merlin somewhere down the line. And then there's the fact that the a1&HV10 combo is about 5K, and the Hvx/FS100 is about $9500, give or take.

Will I miss all the extras of the HVX? Yes, to varying degrees, but in the end those are superceded by the big day to day workflow issues - e.g. I've slo moed about 6 clips in my NLE in the last 4 years, mostly to cheat, so thats not a big sell.

Add to that some of what I'm reading about the Canon's image being firmly in the same ballpark as the HVX's, and it just seems to make more sense. Still, I love the Panasonic image I'm getting right now, it just seems like its the wrong tool for the job.

If I go with the A1, I'd like to take some comfort in a post by Barry in another thread stating that the image in both is great, and that the distinction is about the workflow/feature set, which in the end makes me feel that for me the A1 is the right choice.

Any workflow scenarios for the HVX I haven't considered? Have I thought this out properly? And if so, can someone please make me feel a little better about leaving the Panny fold?
 
Workflow scenarios invariably involve post. Editing in the DVCProHD codec is a breeze, even with a underpowered MacBook.

That was the deciding issue for me.
 
I agree, but post is moot if I can't work out acquisition. Think a Kona 3 is in my near future too, so i'd probaby caputure to DVCProHD anyway.
 
DrHST said:
If I go with the A1, I'd like to take some comfort in a post by Barry in another thread stating that the image in both is great, and that the distinction is about the workflow/feature set, which in the end makes me feel that for me the A1 is the right choice.
Click to expand...

Give me a few days. I've got an XH-A1 here right now, I'll probably be able to write up some decent impressions on it in a couple of days.
 
DrHST -- I'm asking a question about the Firestore and A1 but I believe you can capture 24f .m2t files.

Which means you can still have a tapeless workflow. Might be a great alternative to the HV10 option, if I'm right. But, I believe there is a Firestore that you can capture Canon 24f with, by now.
 
DrHST
Pretty much looks to me like you would be happier with the A1. If you need to film for long periods, without the hastle of offloading footage, you can't beat tape (blu-ray does--but that's too expensive for now)
Use the Kona 3 to capture to DVCPROHD for offline editing only. You'll be tossing out resolution. Build yourself a 10 drive SATA raid and online at 10 bit 1920x1080 uncompressed.
 
Strange enough this question is almost answered by yourself, the money, workflow and the desired picture quality are issues you thought about.

If you shoot tape versus P2 than:
Tape makes long recordings fast in the shoot, slow in the editing.
P2 makes long recordings slow in the shoot, fast in the editing.

How comes? You shift time during the production stage.
Working with tape, you bring all the time you need for capturing, editing and archiving to the end of the production stage. You keep shooting and deliver the tape to the client or bring it home for the editing and capturing stage. It is run and gun, so there is no need for clips direct access and review.

With P2, you shoot, copy, backup during the recording stage, you deliver the client a harddisk or bring it home for the import and editing process. Fact: backup and offloading the P2 cards in run and gun one-man shoots is difficult, takes more batteries and weight.

If you take 2 persons, one with P2 one with tape, shoot a day long, run-gun 3 hours material, the tape person get's a good meal and sleep in the night while the P2 person is working to copy and backup his shoot. Next day they go to to the studio and start with the editing process, reviewing the clips importing them and editing.

Now the P2 guy drinks his coffee (he needs it, didn't sleep to much the night before...) the tape person is working with the boring capture process and hopes the tapes remain safe. BTW: For long recording you can use the firewire connection for FS-100 harddisk recording with both cams.

I've seen 15 A1 Canon clips, you can do the same and make your opinion.

What looks as the A1 strong points:
- its menu-driven features are overwhelming
- it has a wide and long lens
- high resolution (look at wide landscape shots compare that with HVX)
- 24f setting you can use and FCP is editing it

What looks as the A1 weak points:
- You need to change a lot of settings in menu and that takes time
- The 24f (and now the 25f) looks progressive but timing is not the same as HVX
- some controls are are left out or stupid placed
- HDV is not as strong in moving colorful objects as DVCPRO-HD

The Image: HVX wins in color, the A1 in resolution (wide panoramic shot).
The Money: in Europe.

The HVX long recording cost you:
HVX $ 7620,-
3x 8G P2 $ 3843,-
P2store $ 2049,-
-----------
$ 13.512,- ex VAT

Or with FS100 harddisk recording:
HVX $ 7620,-
FS-100 $ 2900,-
---------
$ 10.520,- ex VAT


The A1 long recording cost you:
A1 $ 4483,-
3x tape $ 22,-
----------
$ 4.505,- ex VAT

A1 with tapeless recording & instant backup:
A1 $ 4483,-
FS-100 $2900,-
1x tape $ 8,-
---------
$ 7.391,- ex VAT

Conclusion:
You can buy exactly THREE A1 cams for long recording rungun shoots for the price of ONE HVX with full P2 approach.
 
Thanks for the breakdown xray. What I really need to do is lay eyes on some A1 footage and see what I think, going to start looking for some users in the Boston area. In truth, in many if not most of my recording situations, p2 workflow is purely impossible, unless I want to spend a fortune on cards - simply no way to offload. FS might be possible, but it begs two other questions which I might ask in a separate thread.

Are people succesfully/comfortably using the HVX and/or the A1 handheld with a firestore?

Are people successfully/comfortably using the HXV and/or the A1 with a FS and a steadicam or some other stabilizer?

If it's possible, then maybe I can go with the HVX, but I am skeptical.
 
Hand-holding an HVX with a firestore attached to it, on top of a handheld stabilizer like a Glidecam 4000? That would be torture. That would be some heavy, heavy gear.

The A1 is a lot smaller; it's the same length but about 1/4 less "fat", and it's lighter (but not light; it's a solid hunk of metal). So it'd be a bit less cumbersome on a steadicam type of device, but either would be painful after 10 minutes or so.
 
The A1 customization option is ridiculously rich. The possibility is endless, basically you can perform CC on the cam itself. You can customized the "look" that you wanted and then save it to SD memory for later use. The picture quality of the A1 is simply astonishing. So far, its the best HDV pictures that I have seen so far.

Now astonishing is relative. For narrative work, STILL nothing beats the Panasonic soft look (from the DVX to the HVX). For everything else the A1 with its higher resolution CCD sensor wins hands down, Forget about SONY. The A1 and soon to be released G1 will rock. The Sony V1 is coming out soon but the verdict is still out with that one.
 
Thats wht i meant, for the V1, the verdict is still out. Meaning, we wont be able to get a conclusive judgement until the cam is actually in hands of the users. We need more footage on the V1 before making any claim.

But personally, the V1 is a first generation 3 CMOS 1/4" chips but the A1 was actually a second generation, evolving from its bigger brother, the H1.
 
Barry.. can't wait to see this. Will you have footie samples and all that? Moving shot examples and something to oggle? I saw some side by side shots that were on this site of a fence and some other shots and it looked really promising. Maybe canon has got something right.. and at a nice price point. I like and used canons for years... hate the Sony cams so hopefully this might be a good 2nd HD camera to get for those torturous shoots I have coming up. Like I have a teacher conference to shoot and they want HD footage this time and last year I shot 28 hours of footage in 3 days so shooting to P2 or other option on the HVX might be out of the question... WIth the cash on this gig, I could get the canon and walk away with a few dollars in my pocket.. not a bad deal...


let's see what torture tests and your overal opinion.. you have not steered me wrong...
 
Kholi said:
DrHST -- I'm asking a question about the Firestore and A1 but I believe you can capture 24f .m2t files.

Which means you can still have a tapeless workflow. Might be a great alternative to the HV10 option, if I'm right. But, I believe there is a Firestore that you can capture Canon 24f with, by now.
Click to expand...

You can record to tape or go tapeless while also recording to a Firestore C in m2t or FCP-friendly HDV QT format. 1080 24F capture too.

Edit immediately with a Firestore and put the tapes away for safekeeping.
 
I was offered a Bat Mitzvah gig in early Nov. I have shot many events with the DVX- no problem. Now owning an HVX, I know what a light hog it is and reading about how it's a no-no event cam- I was worried.
So I bought a Canon A1. (I was lucky to find one the day it was released)
The Canon is much easier to hand hold vs the HVX. It has a sleek design.
I was excited. I played around with all the settings and got familiar with the basics.
I shot the event with Canon and my partner used the HVX.
The client was not interested in HD so to make things easy- I was shooting SD DV on both cameras. (This way I could compare the DV quality of both as opposed to 1080i HDV vs 720pn DVCHD.)
The lighting was low and I had to crank both cameras to high gain settings to get an image.
The instant focus on the Canon was a nice feature. The lightness of the Canon made it easy to hold over my head for high angle dancing shots. Image stabilization was very nice- (although no better than Panasonic)
And yes- "shooting" on tape was convenient.
Back in the edit room I began to compare the footage. First off- Once you have shot P2- it's painful to go back to a tape based edit- ugh. Even worse with the Canon- you have to play back 24f from the Camera over FW. It takes Forever.
The colors from the Canon are muted. Not in a bad way, but they do not pop like Panasonic. It reminded me of Woody Allen films from the 80's. I like it, but in a do or die- I prefer the Panasonic.
What bugged me was the motion strobe from the Canon. I assume it's the "24f"- I shot some close-up interview stuff and watching a person talk- it's just strange. Panasonic 24p is rock solid. And guess what? The gain is not that bad. And I was shooting DV. I can understand on a corporate or commercial gig- something that is going broadcast- O.K. But for personal event work I wouldn't think twice about turning up the gain. Most event clients seem happy with lots of decent content- not HQ picture and sound.

I wanted to like this camera and use it for such events- but I can not deal with tape anymore. I love P2. And the motion artifacts are low rent. It was nice to give the camera a real world try out, but- with the new free 8gig card offer from Panasonic I will most likely sell the Canon (if my dealer will not take it back)- and pick up a second HVX.
 
Bokes said:
I wanted to like this camera and use it for such events- but I can not deal with tape anymore. I love P2. And the motion artifacts are low rent. It was nice to give the camera a real world try out, but- with the new free 8gig card offer from Panasonic I will most likely sell the Canon (if my dealer will not take it back)- and pick up a second HVX.
Click to expand...

maybe you can wait for the first sony v1 reviews.
 
Bokes, you are confirming my worst fears vis a vis the A1 - muted colors and motion artifacts. Workflow is inside baseball, all that matters in the end is the image on the screen, and I love the Panasonic. There's gotta be a way to solve the handheld w/firestore issue, 'cause I really want to stay w Panasonic.
 
Bokes said:
What bugged me was the motion strobe from the Canon. I assume it's the "24f"- I shot some close-up interview stuff and watching a person talk- it's just strange. Panasonic 24p is rock solid. And guess what? The gain is not that bad. And I was shooting DV. I can understand on a corporate or commercial gig- something that is going broadcast- O.K. But for personal event work I wouldn't think twice about turning up the gain. Most event clients seem happy with lots of decent content- not HQ picture and sound.

I wanted to like this camera and use it for such events- but I can not deal with tape anymore. I love P2. And the motion artifacts are low rent. It was nice to give the camera a real world try out, but- with the new free 8gig card offer from Panasonic I will most likely sell the Canon (if my dealer will not take it back)- and pick up a second HVX.
Click to expand...

Strange observation as I have seen no motion strobe at all from the A1. Maybe your shutter speed? Plus there are two pull down versions in post just like the dvx in sd , did you use the correct one? One is meant for a 29.97 timeline the other is for a 24 timeline. Also on colours have yu taken the time to read the best colour options? The menu is entirely manual so selectting the right option is a must.
 
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